Shads extra guitar/percussion pre - overdubbing

[Arpeggio]

He!He! It all adds to the interest.

I think that Cliff is a competent guitarist - but Bruce in 2003 could have been thinking about Cliff as a player nowadays - not in 1960 probably. Compared with Hank / Bruce - Cliff just wasn't in the same league as a guitarist 49 years ago. Bearing in mind the need to get recordings done in a set time (& given the number of 'breakdowns' even with the Shadows) - then I don't believe that they would have put Cliff on rhythm. Think about it. "Jet Black" (for example) has only 2 chords for rhythm & yet (it wasn't a joke) - it took over 90 attempts to nail it! (I'm not saying that Bruce's rhythm playing was the reason....I haven't heard any outtakes from that session!)

Yes - familar with Cliff playing "Apache" - & yes he did get through it - but not without mistakes & i wonder how long he had to practise to perform just that one number. Our friend and respected guitarist Colin Pryce - Jones has seen that Cliff. Even in private he's too kind to slag anyone off - but let's just say that he wasn't impressed with Cliff's rendition.

Memory - I think that I've explained pretty clearly why Bruce wouldn't recall the extra / additional rhythm. But...Cliff playing guitar on recordings would have been something that stuck in the memory much more. I have been lucky (between 1989 and 2004 especially) to be able to speak to Hank, Bruce, Brian, Jet and Tony (the latter after two Shadowmanias) at some considerable length. As I say - they were all adamant that Cliff didn't play on any Shads recordings - something I think they would have recalled.

The photograph? I think that it was probably taken during a rehearsal / run through - Cliff just filling in a bit of time on the acoustic - maybe helping to test for balance. I think that the set up was for Bruce. We know that Cliff did attend a lot of Shadows sessions - so that explains his presence. I'll stick with just putting all known knowledge together & surmising that he didn't play on the actual recordings. Of course - I can't be 100% certain.

Bests....Rob

[BrianD]

Thanks for this posting. Very interesting and some fascinating insights. I think it also explains why the original recordings we all know and love still stand up today and have tremendous feel. I expect many of you also have the CD the Shads recorded in the '80's - "At Their Best" when they rerecorded all their old hits but taking advantage of modern (then) recording facilities. Whilst these recordings are technically superior to the originals to me they lost some spark of magic and don't have the feel of the originals. Just a personal view.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Brian

[chas]

Thanks for posting this imformation Rob - absolutely fasinating!
Regards, Chas.

[Ivan Pongracic Jr]

He!He! It all adds to the interest.

No doubt!

First of all, thanks for that Apache video with Cliff playing the lead - wow! I had never seen that before, lots of fun. I think Cliff demonstrates there that he could play well enough to be quite capable of playing the simple additional rhythm guitar parts on the above songs. (He would have sounded better if he had some echo to help him along - to my ears the guitar was pretty dry, which obviously reduced much of the haunted quality of the melody. But, yes, Rob, you're absolutely right that he makes MANY mistakes throughout the song. Still, for never having played lead guitar on stage before an audience before, not too shabby....)

they were all adamant that Cliff didn't play on any Shads recordings - something I think they would have recalled.

You think so? Something that happened on a total of maybe six songs which were recorded fifty years ago? How many songs have they recorded since then?

The photograph? I think that it was probably taken during a rehearsal / run through - Cliff just filling in a bit of time on the acoustic - maybe helping to test for balance. I think that the set up was for Bruce. We know that Cliff did attend a lot of Shadows sessions - so that explains his presence.

Maybe, maybe, but in studying that photo it definitely seems to me like he's there to record. Everybody seems very concentrated and focused and listening very intently. I can't imagine that Cliff could be messing about on an acoustic as the rest of them were trying to work and listen to the music very carefully. Especially with a big mic in front of him (of course, it didn't have to be on). But it all just doesn't add up.

I'll stick with just putting all known knowledge together & surmising that he didn't play on the actual recordings. Of course - I can't be 100% certain.

Funny, I was going to say that I'll stick with just putting all the known knowledge together & surmising that Cliff must have played on the actual recordings. Though I'll agree with you that I can't be 100% certain. So, it seems we're at an impasse. But it's all in good fun! Maybe one day we'll get to the bottom of this little mystery. (It would be interesting if someone could discuss the photo with some of the people in the photo, and see if they have an explanation....)

Merry Christmas, all, and happy new year!
Ivan

[Arpeggio]

Hi Ivan,
He! He! Well, a gentlemanly disagreement - which is as it should be!! You have your point of view, I have mine. I suppose that ultimately - the only person who really knows is Cliff himself. Maybe there is someone on this site who might be able to ask him directly or be able to get the question passed on to him. But...re: "Quatermasster's Stores" - there is no acoustic rhythm guitar on that track - just Bruce's electric.

Bests....Rob

[Fenderman]

There's clearly a third guitar during the chorus of 'Some are lonley'. As the track was written by Cliff the third guitar could be Cliff himself but i always assumed it was Hank overdubbing.

[winkrich]

When is it Lead? When is it Rhythm?

During the damped/echo section of Wonderful Land on the Reunion DVD there's a little bit of second lead. Is it Bruce?

Happy New Year Everyone,

Richard