Shads extra guitar/percussion pre - overdubbing

[Moderne]

If anyone has access to a recording of 'Mean Woman Blues' off the Cliff Sings LP then play it as loudly as you can when you next get the chance. I think it's one of the best examples of the Cliff/Shadows early Strat (pre-Meazzi) sound. Hank's first solo is pure genius and his second would have been the icing on the cake had he not fluffed it right at the end, Again, a good example of what Rob was just saying. Did Hank get a lot of stick for making mistakes or were the others generally tolerant?

Clive

[Stratstroker]

This is absolutely fascinating, now that I've caught up with it, so thanks Rob.

It goes some way to explaining why so many commercially available Shads BTs sound so empty when compared to the originals, especially FBI, as someone mentioned.

Cheers

Al.

[Keith Bateman]

What a fascinating thread Rob. Thanks so much for posting this information, just the sort of stuff we're hungry for. I really hope you're able to bring us more of this priceless detail in the future.

Isn't "Now's The Time To Fall In Love" the track with two lead solos overlapping?

Keith

[Arpeggio]

Thanks Keith - you could be right about "Now's The Time To Fall In Love" - because it wasn't a mega hit etc - that would explain why I couldn't easily remember the title!

Clive: Re: Hank's mistakes....No - one in the control box seemed to mind. It was generally Malcolm Addey who announced the take numbers. If a track had to be halted for whatever reason - his voice would just bark out "Take 7" or "Take 21" or whatever almost immediately. From what I've heard so far - Bruce, Jet and Tony (later Brian) would rarely make any comment if they had to re - record anything because Hank had played a wrong note or lost his way etc. No - but Cliff was often heard remonstrating with him. I think that Cliff took every recording session very seriously indeed (I'm not for one moment suggesting that the Shadows didn't - we all know that Bruce is a perfectionist for example) and that he felt a great debt of gratitude towards Norrie Paramor. Plus, as well as that intensity, the feeling that 'studio time is expensive' (& therefore not to be wasted) also comes across strongly. From time to time the Shadows would be idly or light - heartedly chatting (or sometimes discussing the arrangement) and wouldn't notice that a take had been announced or that the 'Red Light' was on. Time and again, Cliff was chiding them (either collectively or individually) when they didn't begin playing right away. It was never unpleasant or nasty - but there was sometimes an edge to Cliff's voice implying that he was in charge & that Norrie was ready & that they should always be alert and ready to play at a moment's notice.

Bests....Rob

[Ivan Pongracic Jr]

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but a friend of mine just recently told me about it. I have not been active in the Shadow Music internet world for the past few years, but I was fairly involved in the nineties and earlier this decade. I wrote the liner notes for the American Shadows' tribute CD "An Evening in Nivram" which came out in '97, and played on two tracks on that CD ("The Lute Number" by the Troubadours and "The Savage" by the Space Cossacks). I continue to be a huge Shadows fan to this day, one of the great passions of my life. I've read all available books about the Shadows, and think I know quite a bit about them. In addition, from 2000 until 2005 my dad and I had an active Shadows tribute band the Troubadours, and we played quite a few shows around the Midwest USA, as well as the 2001 and 2003 Shadowmania North America events (one of the biggest thrills of my life was being able to hang out with Bruce at those events!). Just to establish some bonafides....

Anyway, I found it fascinating that this thread has come up so recently, as about six months ago I wrote a letter to Pipeline magazine about this very issue! The letter was published in the last issue (#81, Autumn 2009), and I'm going to reproduce the relevant part of it here:

---------------------------------------------
"One of the tracks on that CD ("Instro Beat") inspired me to write this next bit, that being the stereo version of "FBI" by the Shads. Hearing this clean
version in real stereo confirmed what I thought I had been hearing for many years: there are two rhythm guitars on that track. The interesting thing is that there are several other Shadows tracks from '61 that feature two rhythm guitars: "Shotgun", "Sleepwalk", "Big Boy" and "Peace Pipe" - there may be others, but those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. Why is this interesting? Because Bruce Welch has strongly maintained for years that the first time the Shads tried overdubbing was with "Foot Tapper", which of course would have put those experiments around late '62 or early '63. So, where did this mysterious third guitar come from on those few '61 recordings if it wasn't overdubbed? I had a chance to speak about this with Bruce Welch in person in '01 and then in '03, both times at Shadowmania North America in Toronto, Canada. When I brought it up in '01 he was certain that there was no third guitar on those songs, but he promised to listen carefully when he got home. Lo and behold, when I saw him again in '03, it turned he actually kept his promise and listened carefully to those songs! What a true gentleman - and a remarkable human being all around. Anyway, he conceded that he did hear the third guitar part on those songs but had no idea how it ended up there! He was stumped. He thought it was possible that they did some overdubbing earlier than "Foot Tapper" and that he just forgot about it, but it seems odd that they would have only utilized this powerful option to record some very subtle secondary rhythm guitar parts.

Here is my theory: if you look at page 143 of the book "Seventeen Watts?", you will see a very interesting photo, featuring the Shadows in 1960, or maybe early '61, at Abbey Road studios, either recording or more likely running through a song right before they record it (as Norrie Paramor is in the room with them, listening, rather than in the control booth). The most fascinating detail of that photo is that it also shows Cliff Richard playing an acoustic guitar, sitting behind the band - and there's a big microphone placed right in front of his guitar! So, my hypothesis is that the second rhythm guitar part on
the above-listed songs are played by none other than Sir Cliff Richard! All of the songs I mentioned above feature one rhythm guitar part which is relatively straight-forward, and which could easily have been handled by Cliff, while Bruce could have played the more syncopated stuff around that more basic part. And we all know that they used Cliff to play an instrument on at least one occasion: the intro to "Apache." (On "Sleepwalk" you can hear an electric rhythm guitar and an acoustic rhythm guitar, so the above-mentioned photo could very well have been taken at the recording of that song.)

When I suggested this explanation to Bruce, at first he was dismissive, but then eventually he admitted that it was possible, though he didn't remember any instances of Cliff playing guitar on any recordings by the Shadows. I told him about this photo, though, and he couldn't explain it.

I know this is some REAL minutiae, but that's what Pipeline readers live for, no? What do you all think?

Best regards,
Ivan Pongracic
Lead Guitar
The Madeira, The Troubadours, ex-The Space Cossacks
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I appreciate Rob's comments, and certainly agree that his theories are plausible. But I find it somehow unlikely that given the powerful tool of superimposition the lads would settle for just adding a barely noticable rhythm guitar part to a handful of songs FOR TWO YEARS of their early recording career. I'm still quite convinced that it was Cliff that played the third guitar on those tracks, and that for all the people involved this is something that's been long forgotten. (Though it would be really interesting to ask Cliff himself...)

Just wanted to throw this in. Thanks for humoring me.
Best regards,
Ivan

[Arpeggio]

Hi Ivan,
It was your letter in "Pipeline" (to which a reply will appear in issue#82) which prompted my response to the 'problem' of the additional guitars etc. Plus, I knew that you were amongst the first (if not the first) to bring the point to general attention & that you'd asked Bruce about it. However, please forgive me, but I don't agree that it was Cliff who played the guitar. To put it really bluntly - Cliff wasn't a good enough guitarist to play on Shadows' tracks - or even his own. Norrie Paramor was very hot on quality control. Now, I don't pretend to understand exactly why the additional guitarwork (nearly always rhythm guitar) was so far back in the mix - or why it was felt that it was needed. But....I'm certain that it's Bruce Welch and not Cliff. If a really prominent second guitar (pre - overdubbing proper) was required then I'm sure that Norrie would not have hesitated to draft a top session player in....he never did. Moreover....at different times down the years (& separate of each other) - Hank Marvin, Bruce Welch, Brian Bennett, Jet Harris and Tony Meehan all told me categorically that Cliff did not play guitar on any Shadows recordings.

Best wishes,

Rob

[Ivan Pongracic Jr]

Hi Rob! Thanks for the reply. Three things in my response:

1) Bruce was quite categorical in his certainty that there was no third guitar part on those songs that we're discussing now. People forget....

2) I personally have no idea how good Cliff was or wasn't on guitar - but I do remember somebody (don't remember who, but he sounded like he actually knew Cliff) on one of the older Shadows forums claimed that Cliff was much better than people gave him credit. In addition, it doesn't take much expertise to play the additional parts on those tracks - listen to the acoustic guitar (not the electric guitar part) on Sleepwalk for example - it's the same thing throughout the song, and I think it's a grand total of four chords, without any fancy strumming. Really basic, as are the extra parts on Shotgun or FBI.

3) The final - and most important - point: explain the photo with Cliff sitting in the studio playing the acoustic guitar with a big mic in front of it as the Shads are clearly running through a number before they record it.

I would hope that this would at least put some doubt in your mind....

Thanks!
Ivan

[Martin Payne]

Purely on the aspect of Cliff's ability as a guitarist, I asked Bruce either at the 2001 or the 2003 Toronto event whether Cliff was a competent string plucker and to be fair Bruce was very complementary and rated Cliff quite highly.

Martin

[RUSSET]

If you remember, Cliff is seen on a Black & White clip of an early TV show, playing lead on 'Apache' as a joke, complete with Hank-style specs. It was live, & although Cliff's performance was not up to the quality of Hank by a long way, he managed it.
I guess you can assume from that he was a reasonably competant guitarist even then, & could have managed a few Rhythm parts, if needed. Whether he did actually record any with them, .....well I guess only he can answer that. The clip is on YouTube.

Tony.

[chronikman-ch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP9B2JvPMA8
Heinz