who thought of 'the sound'?

[Mike Honey]

this may be a question that has been covered already but I've looked through the archive and cant find an answer. Who thought of/found the sound that Hank had on 'move it' (which i always thought set the standard for british rock 'n' roll). Was it Hank, with his then used equipment, was it Cliff who wanted something different, or was it the studio, trying to get an 'american' sound, or even something completely different!

mike

[chas]

Hi Mike,
Hank didn't play on Move It - it was Ernie Shear (if I remember his surname correctly). In fact the first Cliff single that Hank played on was Livin' Lovin' Doll. Apparently they did a take with Ernie playing lead and one with Hank and Cliff said to Hank afterwards 'I sang better on the take with you'!
Chas.

[chas]

I forgot to add that Hank was using his Antoria (Guyatone) LG50 with it's distinctive sound!

[RUSSET]

Mike,
Move It was recorded by Cliff & the Drifters, before Cliff got together with Hank, Bruce, Jet & Tony. The Drifters were his original backing band & were mates from his home town. I believe it was Ian Samwell, the bass player, who wrote Move It, & on the recording the Lead guitar breaks were played by a session guitarist called Ernie Shear. The band that became the Shadows arrived a little later. I hope I have these details correct. I'm sure someone on site will correct me if I have got it wrong.

Regards, Tony.

[Mike Honey]

So I guess that leads on to ask if Hank was trying to replicate the 'Ernie Shears sound'. Theres got to be somebody responsible for creating that fantastic sound on Apache (which I still think was the best ever shads sound)

mike

[chas]

I think the sound was partly accidental - the Strat that Cliff bought for Hank because they liked the sound that James Burton had, and knew he played a Fender, and assumed he must play the most expensive guitar in the catalogue (James actually played a Tele). Then Hank discovered the joys of the tremelo arm that it had, and Joe Brown asked Hank if he'd 'seen one of these?' (Meazzi echo unit)....
Not to mention Hanks unique playing ability and imagination,and they obviously knew what sounds pleased them. On the recording side there must have been some input from Norrie and the engineers in the studio.
Chas

[Mike Honey]

nice one Chas! that just about covers it. I've always wondered how the Brit rockers had such a distinctively different sound from their american counterparts. When you listen to the Ventures,chantays etc, the sound is so different from the shads! Thanks

mike

[Didier]

The line-up for the recording of "Move It" was Ian Samwell on rhythm guitar and Terry Smart on drums, supplemented by session musicians Ernie Shear on lead guitar and Frank Clarke on upright bass.
More details on this recording here
But another version was recorded later for Cliff's first LP (with a live audience), with Hank Marvin, Bruce Welch, Jet Harris and Tony Meehan.

Didier

[MeBHank]

So I guess that leads on to ask if Hank was trying to replicate the 'Ernie Shears sound'. Theres got to be somebody responsible for creating that fantastic sound on Apache (which I still think was the best ever shads sound)

mike

Hi Mike...

I doubt Hank was trying to copy Ernie's sound, but I believe that both he and Ernie were trying to get a sound that was in the same "ball-park" as those of the guitarists that played on the US records of the time.

By putting the echo box to such effective use early on in his career, Hank unknowingly set the foundations for a distinctive signature sound. It also helped that he was part of a band/unit and had not pursued the path of becoming a faceless session musician. If Ernie had been an artiste in his own right, or part of an established band, maybe more he would have become a household name similar to Hank, Duane Eddy or Bert Weedon. But we all know that Hank ended up with the superior sound by far. His youthful expression of the music and also his urgent use of the tremolo was another factor in the music being such exciting listening.

I'm sure that the sound on Apache was a fluke. Hank was trying to develop his sound, as all pioneering guitarists do. With the combination of the Strat (chosen from a catalogue by Cliff and the Shads), Meazzi (suggested by Joe Brown) and Vox amp (Hank's choice) he had a simple yet effective sound. A small amount of tweaking on the desk (including taking out some bass frequencies to suit the vinyl medium) and a generous amount of reverb later and you have the awesome result. They just got the best sound they could within their time restrictions in the studio and recorded the result.

All IMO...

J

PS: I typed all the above before I saw Chas' comment but thought I'd still post this anyway.

[cockroach]

Surely these were all British efforts to try and achieve the electric guitar sounds that the Americans had on popular recordings for some time before?

People like Les Paul, Chet Atkins, Buddy Holly, Scotty Moore (with Elvis) Cliff Gallup (with Gene Vincent) and James Burton (with Rick Nelson)

These players influenced all of the British players...they have nearly all admitted this many times.

Many of the US recordings featured delay/echo and reverb, even distortion, plus the use of vibrato arms, lighter gauge strings for bending to get "blue notes", and hand-damped tricks to get echo repeat effects. The British players got closer to these sounds when they could get their hands on Amercian guitars- although the British amps and British or European echo units were improving and becoming available also back then.

Hank developed his sound by trying to copy the Americans - and he said that he FAILED, but instead created his own sound- he said this himself in an interview (also with Bruce present) in the 1980's in a Guitar International special magazine. It was in that same interview where Bruce revealed that he used Cliff's acoustic Gibson J200 on many rearly recordings- not the electric Fender guitars. They both joked that one mistake they made was not buying shares in Fender and Vox!

Sorry- I ripped that interview out of the magazine and sent it to my mate back in the UK who posts on here now and then.