How loud were they?

[cockroach]

Reading the Duane Eddy thread, I have often wondered just how loud our favourites actually were when playing live shows back in the late '50's-early '60's- compared to modern concert levels etc.

I first saw a local group (playing Cliff & Shads, Billy Fury, Krew Kats vocal and instrumental covers etc) playing live in Aylesbury in about 1962, and as a 12-13 year old, I was astounded at the volume (although it was exciting and I enjoyed it, needless to say- and I knew that I wanted to do that too!) So I suppose it may all be relative?

Duane evidently had a custom built 50 watt amp back then, whereas the early British groups, including the Shads, often used only 15-20 watt Selmers etc, and a bit later, Vox AC30s etc- although as is known, an AC30 can really make some noise if cranked right up...

I've read reviews of Buddy Holly's shows in the UK which remarked how loud they were (for a trio especially)- Buddy probably used a Fender 4 X 10 Bassman or 2x12 Twin, about 45-50 watts, which would of course have been very large and loud in those days...

It would be interesting in 2010 to experience a group like, say, the Rapiers, doing something like an early Cliff & Shads or Marty and the Wildcats set, with 15 watt Selmers and a low powered house house PA- with no modern 'sound reinforcement' , sophisticated mixing desk and effects etc! And also maybe using a Framus or Hofner bass, and some Hofners, Futuramas etc to make it really authentic...!!

Anybody game to try it?

[Bob Dore]

This would be a question drummers can probably answer best because a good sound balance, then and now, is dependent on the acoustic instruments if there is no sound reinforcement system in use.

Did drum kits in the early days generate the same volume as modern kits? If so, the answer is the same now as it was then unless the balance was very different then.

An important thing sound reinforcement systems do is to provide the same sound and balance to all the seats in the theatre. In a large theatre with no SR people in different seats will hear a different sound.

Bob.

[dave robinson]

Cockroach wrote;
"I've read reviews of Buddy Holly's shows in the UK which remarked how loud they were (for a trio especially)- Buddy probably used a Fender 4 X 10 Bassman or 2x12 Twin, about 45-50 watts, which would of course have been very large and loud in those days..."




Buddy Holly used a Magnetone 260 amplifier - I know where there's one for sale . . .

[ecca]

I remember us lot in 1963 having AC15 s and the PA was a Marshall 50 watt monster.

[RayL]

For his show on 13th April 1960 at the Finsbury Park Empire, Duane was using his Magnetone (tweaked up by Buddy Wheeler), which he'd brought over from the 'States. According to the little picture that I drew on my programme at the time, Dave Campbell played his Precision through a small Vox amp (almost certainly on hire for the tour). Jim Horn played his tenor through the (inadequate) announcements mic of the house PA. Larry Knechtal's piano (the house grand) was unamplified, as were Jimmy Troxel's drums.

Yes, to my ears it was loud, but not painfully loud. There can't have been much bass but then no live music had much bass in those days - there just weren't the amplifiers capable of producing it.

Compared to the video shoots I've done of punk bands at, say, the Underworld Club in Camden Town where the whole stage is built on a row of bass bins and the amplified kick drum feels like a punch in the chest and I wear quality ear protection to avoid serious hearing damage, live shows in the early sixties could sound penetrating in the mid-frequencies but they weren't at danger level.

Ray L

*This was the rest of the variety bill, as provided by Moss Empires Limited (Chairman, Prince Littler), to support one of the USA's top rock'n'roll acts. What Duane must have thought of it I can't imagine.
Overture by The Empire Orchestra
Alan Randall - Modern Man Of Music (he played the Xylophone)
Taylor Maids - Sophistication With A Difference (the skirt trick long before Brotherhood Of Man)
Frank Ifield - Australia's Personality Singer
Des O'Connor - Comedian
The Four Playboys - Four Boys With A Beat
Kathy Kirby - TV's New Singing Star

[Arpeggio]

Great post Ray. I recall that you noted down at the time - some or all of the numbers which Duane played 50 years ago!! Could you possibly share that info with us too? Kathy Kirby in her pre - fame days and Alan Randall before he turned into a George Formby tribute. Frank Ifield pre - fame etc. Fascinating!!!

Bests....Rob

[RayL]

Hi Rob

Duane's set was:-
Peter Gunn (played in F to give a flat key for the sax, with Duane's little finger at full stretch to play the Ab note of the riff. I'm told that these days he uses a guitar tuned up one semitone)
Cannonball
3-30 Blues
Rebel Rouser
Greensleeves (done as a special tribute to his English audience and the only number of the set that Duane has never recorded. Philip Pell and The Twang Gang played it at this year's Duane Eddy Convention)
Some Kinda Earthquake
40 Miles Of Bad Road
Shazam!
Bonnie Came Back (His current single. Recorded on November 21st 1959 as part of the sessions for his album The Twangs The Thang but identified as a single release and held back from the album, which was released in March 1960. As I mentioned in a previous thread, producer Lee Hazlewood was determined to give the fans an album of all-new material, which ran counter to the usual USA record company policy)

Ray

[Pat Seaman]

From memory, our band's sound level was about average during the early 60s..................Our line-up was my AC30TB for lead, Pete's AC30/4 for rhythm and Keith's AC30B for bass.................The drum kit was a Sonor. The PA was a Selmer Treble and Bass 50 running through 2 Vox column speaker cabs ( the 10" ones ).

The balance was achieved by trying to match the level of the drums! Obviously, there wasn't an excessive bass volume and If I remember rightly, I normally set the volume of my Vox at about 1/2 way, although it depended on the size of the venue...........ie. Winkleigh Village Hall or St. Georges Hall in Exeter.

As far as I remember, the levels weren't over-the-top, but I'm left with a slightly deaf right ear!

I wish I had that gear now.............my Vox went to a lad in a punk band and Keith's AC30 bass ended up on the local tip, after years of use as a social club PA. ( I could have cried when I found out about that, several years later ) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pat.

[RUSSET]

As I remember back in around 1964 most bands playing in local venues (pubs, small clubs etc.) sounded pretty loud at the time, as you can imagine, but AC30s were, & still are, loud amps in a small space. They really did cut through, even a loud drummer with an acoustic kit. We weren't used to the new Marshall stacks at that time & I guess it's all relative, so that was our 'loud'.
I did see the Shads live for the first time at the B'ham Hippodrome theatre around that time, & of course, what we saw on stage were 3 AC30s. I didn't know much about sound reinforcement at that time, so I imagine they must have been amplified via the house PA, as their sound filled the theatre & was superbly balanced. You could hear every instrument perfectly in it's place in the mix. I thought they sounded even better than on the records. It wasn't too loud, but powerful & just right for the venue.

Tony.

[RayL]

I imagine they must have been amplified via the house PA, as their sound filled the theatre & was superbly balanced.
Tony.

1964? Very, very doubtful. The house PA in those days was 6"x4" eliptical or 8" round speakers in small columns fixed to the walls - enough for comperes, comedians, and for Frank Ifield or Malcom Vaughn to warble their latest hit. Certainly not capable of reproducing the sound of a band like The Shadows. The idea of putting a mic in front of each amp, running all the mic leads to a stage box, then a multicore to an FOH mixer and sending a mixed feed back to powerful, full range speakers either side of stage did not start to come in until many years later. In 1964 that sort of gear just wasn't available.

No, my guess is that you heard then what you can hear today if you go and see The Rapiers - four guys who know how to use their gear and how to fill a theatre with a clean, balanced sound.

Ray L