Ever wondered how many Shads records there are?

[JimN]

Well, not records, really: tracks.

I've been going through my collection database, creating a version which contains only the official (and a few unofficial but legal) releases over the years. I have included all EMI and Rollover recordings, with studio versions and live versions counting as separate tracks. As an example, there are eight (8) separate versions of Apache, listed:

1960 EMI studio version
1964 Live In Holland (with John Rostill)
1969 Live In Japan version (with Alan Hawkshaw)
1975 Paris Olympia (with John Farrar)
1978 Live at The London Palladium version (with Alan Jones and Cliff Hall)
1989 Rollover re-recording
1989 Live In Liverpool
1990 Shadowmix version (an edit of the Rollover re-recording).

Apache provides an example of the varying laws on copyright which have existed in Europe. I have included the legitimate-in-Italy releases from Aulica and Fremus in my total.

So... including studio versions, re-recordings, live versions, alternative versions and different mixes and edits....

...I make it a total of five hundred and sixty-eight (568) tracks, from the live versions of Jet Black, Driftin' and Be-Bop-A-Lula in February 1959 through to Life Story in 2004.

One of the 568 which I don't have in my collection - yet - is the "Green Mountain remix" of the Rollover Wonderful Land. But I'll work on that one.

Any competing totals?

JN

[AlanMcKillop]

Is Green Mountain remix a sort of disco mix? If so, I've got it somewhere.

[captainhaddock]

In his book, "A Pocket Guide To Shadows Music", Malcolm Campbell lists 572 official releases.

[JimN]

Hmmm... I wonder if I have a few missing out of the database?

I noticed this morning that Somewhere was missing (and rectified that, with two vinyl and four CD appearances.

JN

[UlrichS]

Well, not records, really: tracks.
As an example, there are eight (8) separate versions of Apache, listed:

1960 EMI studio version
1964 Live In Holland (with John Rostill)
1969 Live In Japan version (with Alan Hawkshaw)
1975 Paris Olympia (with John Farrar)
1978 Live at The London Palladium version (with Alan Jones and Cliff Hall)
1989 Rollover re-recording
1989 Live In Liverpool
1990 Shadowmix version (an edit of the Rollover re-recording).

Hi Jim,

including different takes (some of them available only on 'unofficial' releases) and live recordings available on vinyl or CD I am counting up to 637.
The reason for the difference could be: If you count the Apache bit from Shadowmix separately then you should also count the 'Apache' bits from the Kingston 1962 concert and from the 2004 tour, what I have done.

Ulrich

[JimN]

Hi, Ulrich,

Hmmm... this could be the stuff of a fascinating - and perhaps even philosophical - discussion.

The trouble is that when compiling any list of "different versions", a line has to be drawn somewhere. For that reason, I would argue against the 1962 Apache intro to Shazam! being classed as a version of Apache simply because it is not part of the published piece as written.

If you listen to the original Bert Weedon version, you hear that the original intro, as played by Bert, is different from the Shads' intro. Hank made that other intro up, apparently on the spot in the studio. It's similar - but it's not the same. Then, because Jorgen Ingmanns based his later version on the Shadows' recording rather than on Bert's disc, more or less every later version ever recorded - whether influenced by Hank or by Jorgen - has had that Hank intro to a nicety whether in the European or USA sphere of influence. But strictly, it isn't the intro to Apache. It's the intro to the Shads' version of Apache! It's even been used in other instrumentals by other guitarists over the years. Hank should have copyrighted it and argued for a co-composer credit. He might now be 0.0005% richer than he is.

So while the 1962 ABC Kingston recording is certainly meant to suggest Apache (as is the more recent Riders In The Sky arrangement), it doesn't actually present Jerry's notes.

On the other hand, the Shadowmix version does contain the "proper" melody of Apache...

Nevertheless, I expect that Jerry's estate and EMI Music (the successors to FD&H) do gain a little for each sale of any recording of another tune using Hank's intro.

But, in the end, it's all a matter of opinion...

JN

[cockroach]

You blokes are amazing!



(but you really should get out more... )

[iefje]

Well, not records, really: tracks.

I've been going through my collection database, creating a version which contains only the official (and a few unofficial but legal) releases over the years. I have included all EMI and Rollover recordings, with studio versions and live versions counting as separate tracks. As an example, there are eight (8) separate versions of Apache, listed:

1960 EMI studio version
1964 Live In Holland (with John Rostill)
1969 Live In Japan version (with Alan Hawkshaw)
1975 Paris Olympia (with John Farrar)
1978 Live at The London Palladium version (with Alan Jones and Cliff Hall)
1989 Rollover re-recording
1989 Live In Liverpool
1990 Shadowmix version (an edit of the Rollover re-recording).

Apache provides an example of the varying laws on copyright which have existed in Europe. I have included the legitimate-in-Italy releases from Aulica and Fremus in my total.

So... including studio versions, re-recordings, live versions, alternative versions and different mixes and edits....

...I make it a total of five hundred and sixty-eight (568) tracks, from the live versions of Jet Black, Driftin' and Be-Bop-A-Lula in February 1959 through to Life Story in 2004.

One of the 568 which I don't have in my collection - yet - is the "Green Mountain remix" of the Rollover Wonderful Land. But I'll work on that one.

Any competing totals?

JN

There are some additions to the eight entries for "Apache". The original 1960 studio version was also released in a, as Malcolm Campbell and Les Woosey call it, 'enhanced mono' mix, issued on the 1967 French compilation LP "The Shadows' 60's" and also in a slightly different stereo mix, created by Bruce himself for the 1977 3-track single "Apache"/"Wonderful Land", "F.B.I." and the renowned 1977 compilation album "20 Golden Greats".
Then there is the 1984 live version from the reunion concerts with Cliff Richard, first released in 1986 on the VHS video "The Shadows Live", later released on DVD format in 2000.

[MikeAB]

I knew I'd have to 'do this' one day for my collection - guess this is the time!?

I have various Shads playlists on my iPod - the 'all' list had 619 tracks in it originally but this thread has tempted me to look for unintended duplicates etc. I have got it down to 610 so far - but still included are all the intros and any inserted original studio tracks on the expanded Live in Paris CD - but what does Black Eyes count as - Shads or MWF?! I don't have the Fremus 'Atantis' CD so anything unique on there is missing - and I do not include video only tracks or essentially identical mono/stereo takes or shortened versions of otherwise identical tracks eg Tennessee Waltz/Johnny Staccato/Going Home (Argentina being an exception so far!) - or the stereo version of Bongo Blues as Bruce seems to disappear a bit. Also I do not have the 'third' Dancing in the Dark track which I suspect is just a shorter edit anyway? But the work continues!!!

Can someone tell me if the live Apache on the Fremus 'Dakota' CD is the same as the one on Live in Japan - they are so awful I can't bear to play them enough to tell!

Sad but compulsive!

Mike

[iefje]

I knew I'd have to 'do this' one day for my collection - guess this is the time!?

I have various Shads playlists on my iPod - the 'all' list had 619 tracks in it originally but this thread has tempted me to look for unintended duplicates etc. I have got it down to 610 so far - but still included are all the intros and any inserted original studio tracks on the expanded Live in Paris CD - but what does Black Eyes count as - Shads or MWF?! I don't have the Fremus 'Atantis' CD so anything unique on there is missing - and I do not include video only tracks or essentially identical mono/stereo takes or shortened versions of otherwise identical tracks eg Tennessee Waltz/Johnny Staccato/Going Home (Argentina being an exception so far!) - or the stereo version of Bongo Blues as Bruce seems to disappear a bit. Also I do not have the 'third' Dancing in the Dark track which I suspect is just a shorter edit anyway? But the work continues!!!

Can someone tell me if the live Apache on the Fremus 'Dakota' CD is the same as the one on Live in Japan - they are so awful I can't bear to play them enough to tell!

Sad but compulsive!

Mike

Tracks 11-20 on The Shadows' CD "Dakota - The Classic Collection" (Fremus) are not really by The Shadows, they are by Marvin & Farrar as a duo. Those ten tracks come from the extremely rare 1973 Japanese double LP "Cliff 'Live' In Japan '72". The line-up for track 11 ("Back Scratcher") is:
Hank Marvin - Lead Guitar
John Farrar - Second Lead/Rhythm Guitar
Brian Bennett - Drums, Percussion and leader
Alan Tarney - Bass Guitar
Trevor Spencer - Percussion
Alan Hawkshaw - Piano

The line-up for tracks 12 to 20 ("The Rise And Fall Of Flingel Bunt" to "Keep The Customer Satisfied") is:
Hank Marvin - Lead Guitar & Vocals
John Farrar - Second Lead/Rhythm Guitar & Vocals
Alan Tarney - Bass Guitar & Backing Vocals
Trevor Spencer - Drums & Percussion