FLINGEL BUNT WITH THE STRYMON VOLANTE

[roger bayliss]

I recall Charlie Hall has two different settings on echos of the past, one for Long Tom the other based on the EM2. I do not think anyone has finally settled which echo was actually used. For the most part it's the apparent double echo repeat that generally goes Dada after the string strike of Dada that really matters on Flingel . But yes there are more than 2 echos present at lower outputs. Charlie used to judge these tunes on oscilloscope to judge timings of heads and I think it was a difficult call for him to say with any certainty back then. Anyone got the definitive answer ?


I have looked at the eftp settings off the Magicstomp and one specifies Longtom using 2 heads thus

358ms , 0 feedback , level 100
428ms, 30 feedback, level 94

And a second 4 head setting thus.

104ms, 0 feedback, level 57.
207ms, 0 feedback, level 61.
280ms , 0 feedback , level 60.
455ms, 30 feedback, 100 level.

Clearly the usual EM2 head 4 timing in second set is no where near the usual approx 360ms. If Charlie thought 455ms or 428ms echo was present, then maybe it was not the EM2 ? Maybe a Longtom variation?

From my Blue Baby eTap2hw info sheet , the settings given are for Longtom patch E with following heads 9n Flingel

101ms , 0db,
188ms, 0db
276ms, 0db
364ms, -2db with feedback taken.
456ms, -4db

Feedback quoted at 2.6 and 1.3 dry/wet

I think this was for v4 of the pedal

Here is what Paul Rossiter said earlier in the thread

Hi Dave,

For Flingel Bunt, try a Long Tom setting of 6 heads spaced about 77mSec apart, with heads 3 and 6 about 4-5 dB above the other 4 heads and feedback from the last head (6).

With regard to distortion, I think that the first intentional use was possibly in 1960 on The Stranger where an over-driven Meazzi is is much in evidence.

Regards,

Paul.

[dave robinson]

1st version better but needs more feedback, 2nd version is way ott with echo vol, subtle is the word here, echo sounds spitty by comparison to the record, reminds me of an amtech,
guitar tone on both versions two thin and trebly,
i do think most are jumping to the conclusion of a long tom being used on this track because of the said picture ? maybe it was but if yes a longtom having owned several does not sound like the above,
the model 2 still comes to mind,
phil

The OTT echo level was deliberate Phil to study the distortion. I've got Hank's guitar track separated from the recording and I'm hearing a weird tone on the echo only.
I'm actually wondering if there's a second echo machine in play.

[phil kelly]

Hi Dave,
my apologies, a couple of things that makes me question the longtom idea over the meazzi is that firstly on a longtom there is no facility, ie presets ,to alter head levels , they are fixed inside the machine, so to couple the way a longtom sounds both tonally ( it doesnt grunt or have a dirty bark like the meazzi , even if you dig in, its cleaner with less wow due to the improved mechanism) plus its fixed repeats it is, to my ears at least ,not reminicent of the kick in echo we hear on flingel, and there wouldnt have been any control over tape speed back then, the tonality of the echo , still to my ears is the meazzi , which had speed control, core sound to me is the Echomatic 2 , set slower speed to desired tempo in keeping with the tune , which by doing so dropping the first 3 heads so it accentuates the kick in of the regen head 4, add to this the way Hank phrases the intro riff, remember also it would be very easy to pull a head back out of play via the swinging arms, that would create a kick in echo,

[roger bayliss]

Dave Robinson,

yeah I was thinking exactly that last night ! 2 echo machines and I thought the EM2 with head 4 producing the first da and a second machine doing the second da which appears to be longer timing than the EM2 echos. The 123 head levels would be turned down somewhat . Now what machine produced the second da , maybe the Long Tom or was it a Binson. Or did tge technicians at EMI studio help out with a mod ?

Certainly a possibility and why it has been looked at by others thinking one machine was used and struggling to find a machine that truly fits.

Regarding the gain thing, would the drive from 1st machine overdrive the 2nd echo input level .

[fenderplucker]

Hi Guys,

This is indeed an intriguing topic!

As well as the timing of the main repeats, it is important to analyze the echo signal as the repeats die away. On Flingel Bunt, the decaying echoes and repeats bunch up into groups giving the characteristic sound. I tried fitting both the EM2, either with an extra head or running slowly to give the correct echo timing, and the Long Tom and neither version of the EM2 gave the correct bunching, whereas the Long Tom values did. This leaves us with the conundrum mentioned by Phil about the fixed head settings on the Long Tom. However, Jim Elyea says that Hank's version of the Long Tom was customized with regard to appearance, and who knows what else might have been "customized" inside.

The other characteristic of Flingel Bunt is the distortion and compression of the echoes, as pointed out by Dave. Both the drum Meazzi and Long Tom produce this effect. As to Phil's apt description of the "grunt and dirty bark" of the direct signal (I love that description!), it would be interesting to do a direct comparison of a Long Tom with Phil's drum Meazzi. Any chance Phil?

The version on the TVS Jukebox ( https://www.tvsspecialtyproducts.com/ ) used the Long Tom settings I mentioned to Dave and was driven hard to get the crunch and distorted/compressed echoes of the original. I think that it is not too far away?

Paul.

[dave robinson]

I agree that the TVS3 version sounds close regarding the echoes 'bunching'' together but there's that weird tone absent that i can hear on Hank's, it's like a Lo Fi echo with no body in the sound, just a high mid.
I too think it's reminiscent of a Meazzi sound, so without one to hear in the flesh so to speak I can't be certain.
On my new Klynstrom tape echo, I get something close using heads 1, 2 & 6, but not the thin sound. On the Strymon you can hear that it's near but the wrong tone.
I've got my eye on a tape transistor Meazzi on eBay down in Devon, but he's all over the place with the price, it's just an echo unit, not a Factotum and it's been £1150, £2750, £750 and now £1765 all in the space of five days.
That said I'm in the process buying another TVS3 as I've got a sale on some of my old unused gear that is being snapped up at an alarming rate and it's allowing me to collect echo boxes.

[dave robinson]

I've just remembered something that Charlie Hall told me when the H&C was released about there being two machines used on Flingel Bunt.
That may be the key to this strange sound. Rather than Hank having two echo boxes there linked together, I suspect that the engineer may have used one of the Revox machines or similar as an additional echo on that guitar. I have had that done to my guitar sound in the studio but in a different way, but the engineer has full control over the level, tone, compression - everything on that signal before mixing it with the track. That would explain a lot.

[shadocaster1]

Hi Dave, I don't suppose that you are selling your H&C before I buy a brand new one? Worth a try.

Cheers

Kev

[dave robinson]

Check your email Kev

[fenderplucker]

I mentioned above that the bunching of the echoes allows us to distinguish between the various echo machines that might have been used on Flingel Bunt.

I had to search hard to get find a suitable part of the recording and apply some spectral analysis to bring out the echoes fairly cleanly. In both of the diagrams given below, the top trace is Hank in the left channel, and the bottom trace is the right channel.The trace covers the two guitar notes (da, da…) followed by the drum (snare/cymbal?) strike and the echo trains.

The first diagram is for a Long Tom with 77 mSec echo timings and 6 heads: https://app.box.com/s/5gjjfu54hzk9qvcin7l6telfmo61kiip
The arrows identify the expected locations of the echoes from both the first and second notes and cover 2 generations of repeats. (The other scratchings along the bottom of the diagram are for an Echomatic 2)

The Echomatic 2 is investigated in more detail in the second diagram: https://app.box.com/s/u3hvfni80or10gr2f3sb0uygdrfze6tz
The positions where the echoes would appear, either at normal speed with an extra head or running slower to give the right long echo timing are indicated by the different sets of marks in pencil, red and green.

As you can see, the LT seems to give a much better fit to the observed echo locations than any of the Echomatic 2 options.

Paul.