Apache with some budget kit

[dave robinson]

Hi groovers, I've been messing with my acoustic guitar live recording technique and re-recorded lead & rhythm parts on an old Apache BT I made a while ago.
I used the Everly's acoustic miked up for the rhythm and attempted to get close to the recorded sound from 1960, though it isn't easy. Lead guitar is DI from the Fender Tone Master DeLuxe using David Martin's recommended settings. I spent under ten minutes on each part comparing with the record then went for takes.
Tell me what you think.
https://soundcloud.com/dave-robinson-85 ... ckdown-mp3

[rogera]

Hello Dave - for a budget set up that sound is very impressive.

In fact I would say that it's simply impressive even if it had been recorded with expensive equipment.

[John Boyd]

Hello Dave,
That's a most impressive recording. I really enjoyed it.
Which guitar did you use for the lead part?
Cheers,
John B

[dave robinson]

Many thanks for those comments. The guitar was an SX Strat with Mojo Vintage Sixties pickups and Wilkinson Trem/Bridge. I paid £80 for the guitar and £39 for the Bridge swap. The pickups were on eBay on a loaded pickguard for £120. That said, I'll record the lead again with the cheapest Squier I have with all original hardware, including the pickups that are supposed to be crap.
The echo is my Zoom MS-100 BT (£80 on eBay) and the amp is the Fender Tone Master Deluxe, DI'd from the rear socket straight into the desk.
The acoustic guitar is an Epiphone SQ-180 Everly's that I picked up for £180, miked with an in expensive BM-800 computer usb mike, again off eBay @ £13.99 including stand & windshields. The exercise was to make a good job of the elusive acoustic rhythm sound.
I was curious how good technology has moved on and wanted to hear it work in practice. I could spend hours more seeking perfection and very likely getting improvement, but what you heard are all 'one take' attempts with minimal fuss setting up.

[John Boyd]

Thank you very much Dave. At the moment I'm just finishing off a Classic Vibe Strat, Fiesta red of course.
I've paired up a 50's body ( added an 8 hole 3-ply pickguard) with a 60's Simon Neil neck. Kept the original pickups
but substituted a Wilkinson trem bridge and added Fender saddles. I guess it looks similar to some Strats that were
released around July '59. The proof will be when I plug it in! I'm hoping for a good sound - the playing, well that's
another matter.
All the best for the Festive Season.
JB

[JimN]

As you may know, Dave, I don't often comment on soundfiles posted or linked here, but I'll make an exception for this one.

That is a very similar sound to the original 1960 Shadows recording - closer than the one made in 1989, for a start, and certainly closer than any of the official "live" versions. Quite remarkable.

I was going to ask a couple of questions, though I now see that you've provided the answer in a subsequent post. But I still have one (just for the sake of certainty): was the acoustic guitar recorded purely over the mike or is there a mix of microphone and piezo in there? It sounds pretty good whatever the answer is.

Have a good Christmas and New Year (within the limits to which we are all subject).

[Hank2k]

sounds very good Dave. nicely done

[dave robinson]

Thanks for taking the time to listen and for your input guys. I'm doing this to seek help and use as many ears as I can to assist me in getting Bruce's great rhythm sound. I'm more than happy with the lead guitar sound, as it was clearly the studio that created the 'magic' that we all seek. I say that having learned from the hundreds of hours spent looking at this, as well as hearing The Shads play live many times and watching the videos we are lucky to be able to see. How many times I have seen and heard Hank play and like us, not getting the sound of the records, he's clearly not worried about it so that'll do for me. I've discovered through recording from one day to another, just how different the tones and timbres change on a daily basis.
Anyway to Jim's question, I insisted that the guitar had to be recorded the way Bruce's guitar was in those photographs at Abbey Road, so that's what I did. I got to where I was happy with it pretty fast, just having the condenser mic off centre to to hole towards the neck, about eight inches away, enough to be able to strum without hitting the mic.
The trimming of the EQ was done on the computer - or desk, cutting out harshness and slightly boosting around 60/100hz slightly and 5k upwards slightly, moving it around until it sounded powerful but sweet. It would be easier to have someone play whilst I moved the controls around, but I'm on my own so it's a bit of a pain. I know it can be better, but I wanted to show that we can do it if we have a starting point to work from. I no longer have my Gibson J-200 but I do have the Tokai version which plays and sounds as good (I did compare them under great scrutiny before selling) and I will try recording that instead of using the Epiphone Everly's guitar. Those double pickguards on The Everley's do make a difference to the percussive sound though, which is why I tried it first, I was doing 'Wake Up Little Susie' & 'Bye Bye Love' before I did Apache. Even though it's an Epiphone, it is an oldish one from the late eighties and appears to have a solid spruce top, at £180 I'm delighted with it and it looks cool.

I recorded the lead part on Apache again today using a cheapo Johnson strat, £75 brand new when we bought it in 2005. It's got those bar magnets under the pickups and chep hardware but after my set up, plays lovely. I also recorded it using my USA DeLuxe which has Fender 57/62 pickups, as well as my Sunburst Strat and they all sound good. I used the same amp settings, echo & EQ and you'd be pushed to say which guitars were the expensive ones. It's all in the tone and the 'set up' and of course the fingers.
I wanted to explode this myth that we need to spend mega bucks to get a good sound, nothing can be further from the truth.

[Iain Purdon]

Myth totally exploded, Dave. (Not that I ever bought into that myth!)

I agree you have a decent starting point for the Bruce sound. You could get closer with the EQ and reverb, as you already know, but it's close enough to be proud of.

That's what my ears tell me. Great work!

[Hank2k]

For the sounds of the lead guitar on the records i think you would be very hard pushed to find better than the Vintage Sounds VST. Ive been using it for the last few weeks and the songs ive done so far have been the nearest ive ever got to the recorded sound and just using my Squier Classic Vibe straight in to my PC with no echo unit or amp in sight it really is fantastic but of course the lead guitar is only part of the sound