THE SAVAGE_Gary Taylor

[Spike]

Hi Guys

I have just replaced THE SAVAGE(TVS2 VERSION) on our website with a new TVS3 version.

This new version is on track #6 on the Juke Box.
http://www.tvsspecialtyproducts.com/page7.htm

Gary Taylor played the lead and Paul Rossiter did the mixing.

The backing track is The Shadows with Hank completely removed.

Hope you enjoy it!

Cheers
Spike

[keithmantle]

Excellent Spike, great work by Gary and Paul.

[dave robinson]

Somebody has been listening and practicing hard ! Well played Gary, great sound, but Paul, where was the classic wap wap wap echo at the end ? Check it out.

[fenderplucker]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for commenting on the posting. I am sure that you could answer your question about the echoes at the end just as well as I but, as you have asked it, I will repeat some comments I made on a different site I made a while ago.

With regard to the echoes at the end, there are many factors that come into play, only one of which is the echo unit. Much of what I say below will already be well known to many, but please bear with me so I can try to give a full answer. I am sure that many others could also add to the discussion

Firstly, what comes out of the echo unit depends largely on what goes in and so the first main factor to be considered is the nature of the last note(s) or chord(s) being played. This includes the tone and setup of the guitar as well as the playing style. Major factors include the strings (new or dead, how bright), the setup (are the strings being choked on the frets), the tone of the guitar itself, (wood, pickups, leads etc). The playing style is also critical (how hard are the notes being played, which notes in a chord get greater emphasis, how strong is the attack, how long are the notes held, how rapid is the release, etc). In this regard each player will be different and this is partly what gives Hank his unique style along with his groove and sense of melody.

Then the signal goes to the echo unit and, as I mentioned in an earlier post with regard to units like the Meazzi (or TVS3), the sound of the echoes is then influenced by how hard the unit is being driven, both because it affects the sound of the direct signal (due to non-linearities in the valve stages) as well as the echo signal (due to compression and distortion in the magnetic tape/drum reproduction process). These affect not just the early echo sound (how clean or "gritty") but also the way they decay. Here I am not just talking about how many repeats occur and how rapidly they decay, but also how the tone of the echoes changes as they are recycled around the delay loop. Clean echoes will be less affected (though they will still be shaped by the limited bandwidth of the recording process), but distorted echoes will have a more complex harmonic (or anharmonic) structure and the higher and lower artifacts will be progressively lowered as they go around the loop. So the level setting as well as the dynamic range of the signal coming in (i.e. attack etc, as mentioned above) is very important. The actual timing and levels and rate of decay of the echoes are of course also critical, but by no means the only concern and are they are the easiest to get right.

Then the signal (note plus echoes) goes to the amplifier and it can have a role in shaping the tone (tone control settings, type of loudspeaker/cabinet, how hard is it being driven, is it compressing the sound, which strongly influences the sound of the echoes, etc).

Then we get to the actual recording process and this can also have a marked effect of the sound of the echoes (and the famed "Abbey Road sound"). The sound will be directly influenced by any equalization and compression/limiting. These may be applied at the recording desk during the recording, later during mixing, or even later again during the master cutting stage (at least in the days of vinyl!). In particular, any compression will have a direct effect on the decay of the echoes and how they sit in the mix, depending upon the attack/decay time and compression rate settings of the compressor/limiter. There are also subtle differences in the sound introduced by different compressors/limiters. Another critical factor is the microphone type and placement technique as well as the ambient setting during recording. Malcolm Addey has commented that he spent considerable time in getting this last factor just right and would often alter the distance from the microphone to the loudspeaker to get it how he wanted. This, together with any added reverb, will also interact with the sound of the echoes. The effect of a number of these factors can be heard at the end of Kon Tiki where the echoes decay and change quality, but the reverb actually blooms up a bit due to the effect of the compressor(s) letting the gain come up again, and this largely masks the final echoes .

So, was something being overlooked in our recording? Almost certainly! Even if we had Hank and his Meazzi, without all of the above factors in exactly the right combination and setting, the sound of the decaying echoes would invariably be different to the original recording (which had just one particular performance and arrangement at one point in time). Given all this, I am a bit surprised that we manage to get as close as we do!

Finally, I was taken by how similar our posting was to one you posted some time ago which was played by Daniel through the TVS3 you had at the time, though the lead was possibly a bit too soft in relation to the backing. Nevertheless, I thought that this was the closest to the origin by a considerable margin to that date. Listening once again to the end the echoes are quite different to our posting, showing just how much they depend upon the actual settings used the whole recording chain.

I suppose we could go back and try a whole range of different ways of playing the last chord and settings of the various elements in the signal and recording chain, and I am sure that we would get closer than we did by just playing through the tune, mostly in a single take. Maybe if we get a lot of spare time we will, otherwise we are quite happy with the overall sound file and its closeness to the original.

Regards,

Paul.

[Gary Allen]

[fenderplucker]

Hi Keith, Robbo and Gary,

Keith, thanks for listening and for your kind comments.

Robbo and Gary, It occurred to me that maybe a demo might be better than trying to explain all the technical facts and so I tried the following.

I extracted the backing from Hank on the original so that I essentially had a lead guitar track. I then truncated it at 95 mSec after the last chord, i.e. before the first Meazzi echo, and this was then played through the TVS3. The output from the TVS3 was recorded directly into the computer (no additional signal processing at all) and the echo tail spliced back into the lead track at that 95 mSec point. This track was then recombined with the Shadows minus Hank backing, giving a direct comparison between the Meazzi echo tail on the original, and essentially Hank playing through a TVS3 for the echo tail on my doctored track. The comparison is attached.

It is not perfect and it never will be. For example the extracted lead track lacked some of the solid sound of the original (a bit like playing it underwater??). Furthermore, the TVS3 echoes were not played back through an amp and so miss out on some of the grittiness of the Vox (though this would have been present on the last chord, somewhat offsetting the effect). Maybe I could have driven the TVS3 just a little bit harder. Nevertheless I think that it demonstrates the point that what you get out of an echo unit depends upon what goes in.

Finally, Gary Taylor phoned and is keen to have a go at better matching the echo tails at the end by varying the way he plays the last chord. If we have any success before going completely mad we will add it to the posting!

Regards,

Paul

[Uncle Fiesta]

I've asked this before but no reply:

where dose one get these "Shadows Minus Hank" backing tracks?

[Gary Allen]

Hi Paul, Would it be possible that Abbey Rd created a dynamic delay effect with a compressor to stop the repeats being intrusive? gary

[dave robinson]

I've asked this before but no reply:

where dose one get these "Shadows Minus Hank" backing tracks?

One makes his own.

[Gary Allen]