ShadowMusic - future of this website and the thinking so far

[dave robinson]

As someone who still buys and tries new gear, I'd like to say that it's been my pleasure to help anyone who has benefitted from my escapades and testing of gear and I enjoy the challenge of checking out if a certain echo will deliver - or not. Times many I have listened to what turned out to be bad advice back in the early days of the site and it cost me money until,I got wise to it and disassociated myself with the hype. Pickups were one of the biggest revelations, as it seemed compulsory to have the Kinman 'Hank Marvin' set installed, which I soon realised took me away from the sound that I was seeking. Then we had all the Alesis echo boxes with EFTP, gadgets to modify your Vox AC30 or AC15 and a plethora of other costly mods to guitars and related kit. Only when I stripped it back and rid myself of all of the above, did I find satisfaction and I never looked back. Admittedly, I was struggling with my hearing (unbeknown to me at the time) but that was remedied and I found that by using roughly the same kit that was a available to us at the beginning, the sound was there a plenty. All it needed was to listen to the original recordings and the way the tunes were played, then try to practice more and learn to use the kit and understand the use of the HPF in the sound chain (High Pass Filter) to get the guitar in the correct ball park. All the new echo boxes available to us at modest prices will do the job as long as you get the guitar tone in the ball park. It took me having to own a Meazzi Echomatic and a TVS3 to be able to do A/B tests in order to realise it.
I continue to get these devices to try out as some of you will have seen, still looking for the best 'buy'. I currently favour my Zoom G5n, as it ticks all boxes for what I do, with the Strymon Volante my favourite 'stand alone' echo pedal but I'll keep offering bits and pieces on new kit as it comes out as long as we're on line .

[Garystrat]

Many thanks Dave, I had been looking at the Strymon Volante, but it was your opinions, YT vidoes and initial help that convinced me to get it and I too haven’t looked back since!

It has provided much of that elusive tone/character that I was seeking for a long time without breaking the bank. One of the things that caught my attention was the Class A JFET analogue path prior to the advanced chip power of the digital echo algorithms, overall it comes together to give the feel of using a vintage unit without the hassle, it also does what it says in being a “Magnetic Echo Machine” that has the potential to cover other echo units and tape saturation effects.

This is perhaps why I feel that it’s worth having links to YT channels and other websites of people like yourself who can continue to post new information in that format?

Note: post modified as I realised that previous comments could have been interpreted in an unintended way,

[abstamaria]

Perhaps it is not appropriate to dismiss as “hype" the advice, particularly on gear, that has sustained this wonderful site these 25 or so years. They were of great interest and immeasurably helpful. It may also be unkind to folks like Charlie Hall and Paul Rossiter, who spent much time, money, and effort in creating software and machines that brought much joy to many. But that is just me.

Paul Rossiter's recordings on the now-gone TVS site, his comparisons between Burns and Fenders, the evolution of Hank's sound, and so on have always been instructive. Listening carefully to his recordings led me to conclude that he and Gary Taylor came closest to That Sound. And they recorded "live," using amplifiers and carefully placed microphones! In the back-to-back comparisons they produced, they were indistinguishable from, in my opinion, Hank's original tracks. But, again, that is just me.

Although I hate to admit it, at our age, our ears may no longer be the best judge, hearing aids notwithstanding, of what is "spot on." Perhaps now we perceive less, particularly the nuances of sound that go beyond frequencies and tone. I posted a test here that may have surprised many as to what they no longer hear. The music profession, by the way, ranks in the top ten of jobs that impair hearing most, along with airport ground crew operations and construction. Rock musicians are especially vulnerable, particularly those who gig regularly.

We are also not all the same in this forum. Many do not gig and therefore feel the need for lighter gear. There is also the function of budget, space, and the needs that attend old age. Some love to tinker and program, but others simply want to plug and play. Even what is important to us individually differs. The decision whether to hang on to an expensive Oasis fiesta-red Strat or replace it with an inexpensive guitar that sounds "just as good" may for some not be influenced by sound.

At this point, when the site is likely about to end, it is sad to hear that all was for naught and that actually we were all alright with what was available when this forum bega n 25+ years ago. We should, I feel, leave the forum on a good note and confirm that here was and continues to be much value to all that has been contributed so enthusiastically here. The site has provided much instruction and joy to me and I believe many. For that, I am very grateful.

With good wishes,

Andy

[Garystrat]

Hi Andy,

There is no way that I would dismiss the wonderful work and genuine advice give by the people you refer to, I have always had the greatest resect for them!
Personally, I was referring to peripheral gear and gadgets that promised so much, but somehow always seemed to leave something wanting!
Apologies if the previous post gave the wrong impression!

Regards

Gary

[abstamaria]

I was not referring to your message, Gary, but many thanks for explaining.

All the best,

Andy

[dave robinson]

Sorry Andy I maintain what I said about much of that 'advice' being hype.
Apart from Paul Rossiter I can't name one person who helped me achieve what I was looking for in the past 25 years. All the other stuff just drained money unnecessarily I'm sorry to admit.
In 1973 I met Hank in Sheffield whilst he was performing a week's cabaret stint with John Farrar at Baileys night club and I went every night to see the show, actually spending three hours chatting with him after the final performance on the Saturday night.
The week began with the show consisting of largely Marvin & Farrar vocals with a sprinkling of instrumentals such as 'Lara's Theme' and an odd Shadow's hit. The audience were not very receptive to the vocals and night by night were demanding more instrumental input, which over the course of the week escalated until it was close to being a Shadows gig by Saturday night. When I met Hank after that last show, he was sat in his dressing room in a very sombre mood and was quite disappointed that the people would not accept the vocals as well as his guitar work. We were chatting about music in general as at that time I was lead guitarist for Dave Berry for which Big Jim Sullivan had provided lead guitar on his early hits, so with Hank being a big friend of Big Jim, we had common ground for conversation. Hank asked me "How are you managing Jim's solos"? to which I replied "Just about" and we both laughed because those solos are tricky. We touched on Chet Atkins and Hank picked up a Martin Acoustic guitar and picked some Chet classics in front of me whilst I watched with admiration. I said to him " You really ought to include some of that in the show" but he just shrugged and said "They don't want to hear me do anything other than Apache & Wonderful Land", which I had witnessed myself.
I tried to reassure him that The Shadows were still a well respected and loved group in the North and that their music was powerful and fondly remembered in these parts, which explained the audience reaction to the show. The problem is, they see Hank with his specs and the Strat (he had a white one) and immediately associate him with those hits and to be honest, they took the roof off with their performance of the Shads hits, but not so with the vocals so much. That did make him feel a little better I guess, but it is difficult for someone as iconic as Hank to be accepted doing something 'off piste'.
The band was excellent and they sounded as good as The Shads ever did to me, Hank used a Vox AC30 Bass Twin and a Watkins Shadow echo that incidentally only had two replay heads, but it sounded like Hank, almost to perfection, which reinforces what I said about the gear being adequate. There was no Meazzi or any fancy pickups or whammy bars with silly cranks in them, it was just 'what it is' and it sounded excellent. Even his Vox was used in the NORMAL channel which was an eye opener as we thought it had to be the BRILLIANT channel, but he showed me the 'set up'. That's why I eventually went back to the roots and it worked for me and I stand by it 100% and that my friend, is my final word on this as it's becoming tedious, though I will add that all of the people buying graphic equalisers would be better investing in a quality HPF and understanding how to use it.

[hiffclall]

Being a slightly younger and newer member of this forum I guess my perspective is a little different.

I agree there is already so much information on this forum which in my mind should be preserved (how sad for example that Paul Rossiter's site with all its wonderful info is gone?)

I guess it's the interaction that will be lacking as well. Reading over archived posts is just not the same...

There are other bands that have long since broken up with members deceased that are still being discussed in forums.....

I think there will always be interest in the shadows and it's individual members. I gather Ghosty's podcast (which I really enjoy) is popular and his facebook page seems quite busy. Maybe it's bringing new people to Cliff and the shads music?

However, I do appreciate and understand all that's being said here....

[Timcooper555]

Sorry Andy I maintain what I said about much of that 'advice' being hype.
Apart from Paul Rossiter I can't name one person who helped me achieve what I was looking for in the past 25 years. All the other stuff just drained money unnecessarily I'm sorry to admit.
In 1973 I met Hank in Sheffield whilst he was performing a week's cabaret stint with John Farrar at Baileys night club and I went every night to see the show, actually spending three hours chatting with him after the final performance on the Saturday night.
The week began with the show consisting of largely Marvin & Farrar vocals with a sprinkling of instrumentals such as 'Lara's Theme' and an odd Shadow's hit. The audience were not very receptive to the vocals and night by night were demanding more instrumental input, which over the course of the week escalated until it was close to being a Shadows gig by Saturday night. When I met Hank after that last show, he was sat in his dressing room in a very sombre mood and was quite disappointed that the people would not accept the vocals as well as his guitar work. We were chatting about music in general as at that time I was lead guitarist for Dave Berry for which Big Jim Sullivan had provided lead guitar on his early hits, so with Hank being a big friend of Big Jim, we had common ground for conversation. Hank asked me "How are you managing Jim's solos"? to which I replied "Just about" and we both laughed because those solos are tricky. We touched on Chet Atkins and Hank picked up a Martin Acoustic guitar and picked some Chet classics in front of me whilst I watched with admiration. I said to him " You really ought to include some of that in the show" but he just shrugged and said "They don't want to hear me do anything other than Apache & Wonderful Land", which I had witnessed myself.
I tried to reassure him that The Shadows were still a well respected and loved group in the North and that their music was powerful and fondly remembered in these parts, which explained the audience reaction to the show. The problem is, they see Hank with his specs and the Strat (he had a white one) and immediately associate him with those hits and to be honest, they took the roof off with their performance of the Shads hits, but not so with the vocals so much. That did make him feel a little better I guess, but it is difficult for someone as iconic as Hank to be accepted doing something 'off piste'.
The band was excellent and they sounded as good as The Shads ever did to me, Hank used a Vox AC30 Bass Twin and a Watkins Shadow echo that incidentally only had two replay heads, but it sounded like Hank, almost to perfection, which reinforces what I said about the gear being adequate. There was no Meazzi or any fancy pickups or whammy bars with silly cranks in them, it was just 'what it is' and it sounded excellent. Even his Vox was used in the NORMAL channel which was an eye opener as we thought it had to be the BRILLIANT channel, but he showed me the 'set up'. That's why I eventually went back to the roots and it worked for me and I stand by it 100% and that my friend, is my final word on this as it's becoming tedious, though I will add that all of the people buying graphic equalisers would be better investing in a quality HPF and understanding how to use it.

One thing I’ve liked about this site, is story’s like this.
Thanks for posting.

[abstamaria]

Many thanks, Dave. You mentioned your long talk with Hank several times before, often in the cnntext of guitars and playimg style, but this is the first time, I think, you spoke about the disappointment Hank felt in his inability at the time to break out of the Shadows mold. Yuu conveyed what he must have felt very well. It is a moving story.

Nokie Edwards, who left the Ventures several times to strike out on his own only to return, must have felt the same disappointment, as many musicians and actors. The formula that propelled the Shadows to fame was a special one, probably accidental but suited to the time.

And, yes, perhaps it will be the incidental stories and the interaction we will miss when this forum shifts to archive mode.

Andy

[abstamaria]

Facebook will permit discussion, as a post can receive many comments, similar to discussions here. That will permit interaction. The Facebook page can be a private, so only those the administrators admit will see what is written and can post or comment, if that is desired.

An advantage of Facebook is that one can easily and directly post high resolution photos and videos, not possible in this forum. The administrators can easily create albums based on specific topics, such as gear, drums, Bass, similar to the message boards here. That may help organize the posts, as here.

Facebook is free and does not require much administration. It is probably worth a try.

Best,

Andy