Early British Electrics

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Re: Early British Electrics

Postby Pol » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:58 pm

RayL wrote:Almost certainly the first solid bass guitar seen by anyone in Europe was the Precision in the hands of Frankie Brent of the Bellboys in 1956 (in the film RAT


Without no doubt Monk Montgomery, brother to Wes Montgomery, is the musician who was first seen and heard with a solidbody Fender bass-guitar. He was touring Europe with Lionel Hampton`s Big Band in late 1953. The 12 week long tour begins in September with Scandinavian concerts in Oslo, Stockholm and Helsinki.
http://www.jazzdocumentation.ch/mario/l ... -19531.pdf

According to concert reviews by local newspaper jazzcritics, the new instrument raised quite a few eyebrows..
A Stockholm newspaper clip with text and photo can be found on the Monk Montgomery Wikipedia page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk_Montgomery

Quote text under photo[i] " The electric bass, the only one of its kind in the whole world, is played by William Montgomery". Readers were encourage to read comments by Simon Brehm,who was at that time the top double-bass player in Sweden.

Cheers Pol
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Re: Early British Electrics

Postby RayL » Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:02 pm

Thanks to Paul for the explanation of the Teddy Wadmore bass and to Per-Olof for the Monk Montgomery link.

Paul, back in the late '70s when you were researching The Burns Book. I sent you a couple of Fenton-Weill catalogues that I picked up in the early sixties, one with guitars, the other with amps. I remember that the amp catalogue included the Stereo Reverberator, but am I right in thinking that by that time the unit was covered in a sandy-coloured material? Like so many gadgets of that time, the concept seemed wonderful - it was a shame that they were so awful in reality!
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Re: Early British Electrics

Postby dusty fretz » Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:50 pm

Will,
I'm glad you like the info on Fenton-Weill etc. In terms of instrument manufacture, this company’s story is obviously much shorter than the Burns saga, but it's no less convoluted, as Henry was a 'jobber', i.e. equally happy to make components and complete instruments that were respectively employed and marketed by numerous other companies. Some such guitars were also re-badged as Fenton-Weills, but never officially appeared in company catalogues, which makes research much trickier! Photos of Henry’s Frankfurt stand in the early 60s show FW instruments of various vintages alongside each other, plus plenty of separate scratchplate assemblies etc., all available to any interested importer or distributor.

That Burns-Weill ad appeared in November 1959 and was repeated in March 1960, with only the name now altered to Fenton-Weill. Regarding exactly who made what and when: operating from his landlady's basement, Jim and a small team of helpers handled the woodworking and assembly for ALL Burns-Weill instruments, while Henry provided pickups etc. After the pair split, Henry built bodies in-house, but necks proved more problematic, so these were instead supplied by a gunstock maker and the parts were then put together in the FW factory.

The catalogue initially continued unaltered, apart from a brandname change to Weill London, as the ever-frugal Henry simply chopped ‘Burns’ off the existing head plates. Once stocks were exhausted he used the new Fenton-Weill version, before eventually switching to a small metal badge. Henry didn't think much of Jim's design ideas and soon set about re-vamping the range, adding cutaways and curves throughout.

At the risk of boring other message boarders to death, here’s a brief rundown of instruments that appeared during 1959 and into early 1960:
1. Jim Burns’ revised Supersound Ike Isaacs model: single-cutaway body, plastic back. Initially used Besson pick-ups, but later employed Henry Weill electrics and branded Burns-Weill.
2. Burns-Weill Fenton: derived from above, with Guyatone-like body & headstock. Matching bass. Both became Fenton-Weill Deluxe models & were subsequently re-styled.
3. Burns-Weill RP/Streamline 'mk.1': offset body, plastic back, controls on raised scratchplate section. Matching bass.
4. Burns-Weill RP/Streamline 'mk.2': all-angular, bigger body. Matching bass. Both became Fenton-Weill models, subsequently re-styled & re-named.

Add to these various evolutions and odd variations as Jim tweaked in already typical fashion, while construction quality improved via increasing experience and the acquisition of better equipment, e.g. a router rather than just fret saw, auger and other equally basic tools!
Last edited by dusty fretz on Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Early British Electrics

Postby mgeek » Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:26 pm

Thanks Paul! Lots of great stuff to think about there! As I'm sure you're aware, info regarding Fenton Weill stuff is so much trickier to pin down than Burns, so all of this is excellent to hear.

I have no shame in admitting that I'm drooling at the thought of that picture of the Fenton Weill stand at Frankfurt. Is there any chance I could see it? The 'of all eras' aspect is particular of interest.

Re: Burns Weill- I've got a photo grabbed from an ebay listing of a bass made to the same shape as the streamline version 1 (guessing this is the one as seen in the Rory Gallagher collection)

It was missing all the bits, and at the time I didn't know the shape, so it seemed a bit iffy. Went for fifty quid I think! I'll try and find it
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Re: Early British Electrics

Postby dusty fretz » Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:45 pm

Hi Ray,
I believe the guitars and amps were all shown in a single catalogue, the 1962 edition with the Hoffnung cartoon on the cover, if memory serves me right. By then the impressively titled Stereo Reverberator had indeed received a new combination of two-tone vinyl covering, with dark end panels contrasted by a sandy-coloured centre section. By now the latter also carried a Stereo logo to partner the Fenton-Weill badge and this was the incarnation I had the misfortune of plugging into. I expected to hear what Fenton-Weill's effusive advertising promised, but unfortunately the sonic reality was very different and I was doomed to disappointment by an ensuing distorted din, albeit delivered at a far from useful low level, while the actual reverb effect was also pretty rubbish. I was assured everything was working as it should, likewise my ears, so I promptly abandoned the idea of parting with 35gns for something that sounded so bad!

Concerning Pol's posting about Monk Montgomery and his early Fender Precision, I recall various jazz albums of the time credited him with playing the 'Fender Bass', employing the description in an almost generic sense to differentiate this still 'new fangled' electric four-string from the traditional, upright acoustic instrument.
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Re: Early British Electrics

Postby burnsbonkers » Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:48 pm

Wow! More great info regarding Fenton Weills,Paul!.
I also am drooling at the thought of seeing Henry Weills guitar show pics!.
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Re: Early British Electrics

Postby dusty fretz » Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:29 pm

Hi Will,
I omitted to include 'Matching bass' in my mention of the Burns-Weill RP/Streamline 'mk.1' model, but thanks to your eagle eye I've now edited the entry accordingly! As you say, the less-angular shape is as used by a six-string residing in Rory's collection, but do check out the other Burns-Weill that he owned, because that one is MUCH more interesting!

I have a few photos of the Fenton-Weill stand, taken at various Frankfurt music trade shows during the early 60s. With typical generosity, Henry gave me these, along with many others, when I interviewed him during my work on The Burns Book. The guitars pictured include early Triplemasters etc. rubbing shoulders with small-bodied solids like those made for Dallas and Hohner. Different shaped headstock are equally abundant, but all carry the Fenton-Weill badge in either plastic or metal form - in other words a variety of instruments guaranteed to confound and confuse any self-respecting researcher!

Unfortunately I can't share these photos on here, as I'm a complete technophobe and haven't a clue about how to achieve such a task. Please don't try explaining the necessary process either, as this has been attempted before, with predictably futile results, so I now steer well clear and stick with what little I know, which is more than enough for me to manage!
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Re: Early British Electrics

Postby mgeek » Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:10 pm

Amazing! Guess I'll just have to dream...unless you could possibly email them? No worries if not

Did you see the very early looking Triplemaster shaped guitar with TWO pickups that showed up on an Israeli classified ads site recently? That was new to me...I'd seen the 6/side version that was sometimes branded as a Dallas, but this was all natural sycamore, 3/side.
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Re: Early British Electrics

Postby dusty fretz » Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:41 pm

Hi Will,
I rarely trawl the internet and certainly not as deeply as you - fancy finding a Fenton-Weill in Israel of all places! I assume this example is one of Henry's re-styled updates of the RP/Streamline 2-pickup, which would make it an early, pre-American Label line Twinmaster. Like the Triplemaster, this was available with or without the first version of Fenton-Weill's vibrato tailpiece.
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Re: Early British Electrics

Postby mgeek » Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:03 pm

Pat Burnsbonkers grabbed the photo, maybe he can upload it...

Yeah, I've pretty much come to this stuff via the internet, the only time I'd seen a Fenton Weill prior to that was yours I believe, from the Ultimate Guitar Book, which I got for christmas as a guitar mad 13 year old!.

It's weird where they turn up- I think Weill must have done a roaring trade internationally, at least at first- seen a 'Weill London' RPG in Belgium, a Duotone in the Congo, super early triplemaster in white in Australia...

Now I think of it, a large number of the 'wow I've never seen one of those before' early looking Weill and Fenton Weill models have been abroad, compared to say, Dualmasters, which I've mostly seen in the UK and occasionally the USA
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