Double Six bass?

[Graylion]

Sorry I'm so slow on the uptake but I've just looked on the Burns site with the glorious D6 Apache. (Last year's model now!) Please closely check out the headstock pic as it looks like it's strung with the original style of octave down strings - like Hank's first. See how the strings are massively "necked down" at the pegs? Definitely not 10s or 12s!! The photo is only slightly larger than life-size and just look at those tree trunk bass strings!! See the bridge/trem end too - PHEW! - they are bigguns!

I spoke to Barry G years ago on the phone and asked him if he ever intended to produce the bass-tuned D6 - he said "If there's a demand". I posted a thread on the site at the time asking people to write in! Obviously there's no mention of it re: the Apache so I guess I'll have to find out from the horse's mouth, or has someone already done that? If it's the 12-string bass, as Hank used to call it, then I absolutely MUST have one, even if it breaks the bank!! Or have I missed something here? (Haven't logged on since about last October so I deserve a slap!)
Cheers, Lionel

[RogerCook]

Well it certainly looks like it's strung "octave down". I've seen one close up in the flesh (wood ) as it were, but that was strung "octave up" with 1st and 2nd strings in unison. The 1st and 2nd in the headstock close up are definitely different gauges. In that pic it looks as though the truss rod adjustment is at the headstock too.

I'd be interested to know what the string gauges are and how they are accomodated in the Res-O-Tube trem

Roger

[Graylion]

Yep Roger - anyone with a bass guitar will recognise bass strings. No standard tuned guitar would need massively "necked-down" strings like that! As you've also spotted, there are no unsion strings at 1st & 2nd. It certainly looks like the original 12-string bass, as Hank used to call it, with 6-string bass in harmony with 6-string lead. I understand that the reason he gave them up was because of the problems with tuning. As you know the original D6s had a slotted bar bridge and not individual pieces, so it must have been difficult, or impossible, to get the octave harmony with bass & lead strings. This problem has now been overcome with lovely, individual bridge pieces. I suspect this one is a trial or prototype, but why use it in promotional photos? I hope it has a massive truss-rod! I will phone them up when I have time.
Why hasn't anybody spotted this before? What have you all been doing whilst I've been away?
Cheers, Lionel

[Graylion]

In spite of the fact that only Roger seems interested in this post, I'll give my update here and on Charlie's site:-

I spoke to Barry Gibson today (He phoned me back at home after I left a message on the Sales phone - bless 'im!) and got the lowdown on the Apache Double Six in their photos. It IS a 12-string bass tuned version, as per the original 1960 Double Sixes. He congratulated me on my "eagle eyes" and said that no-one had spotted it until me! I think that's why he took the trouble to phone me back personally - unless there's only him at Burns?

It's a special and the only version that was available for photos before they started the run of the standard Apache D6s. It was custom-made to order for a certain guitarist in a world-famous band (To this site at least!)- "Las Sombras" I think - who wanted a guitar for a forthcoming world tour which would give the sound of the 1960s recordings that he made with the original Burns Double 6 - or '12-string bass' as he used to call it. Barry spent a lot of money getting Rotosound to dig out old specs and make the strings, making/modifying the bridge and trem unit as well as hand cut top nuts etc. It holds its tuning perfectly, like the standard D6 (which almost never needed tuning and kept the same strings throughout their world tour!) It has tapewound/flatwound strings as per the 1960s version. Unfortunately it got the "thumbs down" from the band's accompanying guitarist, who seems to have a reputation about being overly fussy with some aspects of guitars. He didn't like the sound and described it amongst other things as being "too muddy". (Through a Vox AC30? If so, I'm not surprised as there is a massive load and harmonics with the equivalent of bass and lead together! The bass part needs a 15" Goodman speaker!) I think he said that a total of three were made but they were rejected by the band in favour of the standard tuned version. How annoying, not to mention expensive! Apparently the guitarist from The Rapiers loved it but he'll keep playing his 1960s D-6 Bass!

Barry pointed me toward his own band's recordings on the site - front page, top left "Local Heroes" - and he says the track "Hotel California" uses this 'special' Apache. I've listened and I guess it's one of the backing guitars. Look at the list of players too! He also reckons the orginal bar bridge doesn't have the tuning problems alleged by certain guitarists, as The Rapiers will also confirm. It's all a matter of compromise, as with most 12-strings, according to Barry. I said that I thought he was more than a little bit ambitious to go for the bass version with a trem but he assured me it didn't have a problem staying in tune, (Also it was asked for by the band aformentioned!) although it might be possible to string up the standard fixed bridge D-6 with different or modified bridge pieces and a new top nut. The truss rod should be up to it. I've just realised I forgot to ask him about the truss-rod on the "big one"!

As only Roger might be reading this, that will do for now!
Cheers,
Lionel

[Graylion]

WHOOPS! WRONG CALIFORNIA! It's "California Dreaming" I think.
Lionel

[George Geddes]

Fascinating stuff, Lionel... Thanks for digging it out!

George

[RogerCook]

Lionel, I'm not reading this It only makes me want one

Roger

[Graylion]

Barry has one with my name on it but I wish I could try one out in the flesh first as I'm not sure about the tapewound string sound. My wife reckons I don't actually NEED another guitar though In 50 years I've only accumulated about 16 or 17 (lost count!). That's only an average of about 3 per year Hardly extravagant and, in any case, at least 3 are "projects in progress" so they don't count - ask my lawyer!

[chas]

I strung one of my Club Series Double 6's a year or so back with all octave strings as per the original optional alternative - i.e. bass version - though with roundwound strings.

Chas.

[Graylion]

Hi Chas, Where did you get the bass strings for such a short scale? (25.5"). Did you have any probs with the neck or trussrod? I discussed this option with Barry Gibson during our long conversation (He said it was nice to talk to someone who knew what they were talking about! ). He hasn't tried it but reckons the neck/trussrod should be up to it. Obviously he said it would need new or modified bridge pieces to take the thicker strings plus a recut top nut, that part's not too difficult! Being a hardtail there are no trem complications.

If it was a viable option I would keep my existing D6 Club, as it's a perfect player, but buy a new one to modify. Much cheaper than the Apache version as shown on their site, (It's a few hundred quid dearer than shown - as bass tuning!) even if it wouldn't be as pretty! I don't suppose you have any sound clips you could send me? It doesn't have to be a tune - just the strings played to demo the sound - perhaps with varying pickups? I'd be really interested in what you had to do to modify it. Were you able to recut the original bridge pieces for instance?

BTW - just to be technically correct, the original Burns Double Six was strung with the octave down as standard. The option was to have it 'standard' 12-string tuning. I don't know of anyone who asked for that, for its first year of production at least. Hank's early D6s were bass-tuned. My early Burns catalogues only list the "bass 12" spare strings at the back. They were £4. 12s 2d for a full set. Now before anyone says - "That's not bad" - remember this was 1964. The equivalent in today's money is over £70!

Whilst I was at it I priced up some of their other guitars. The Marvin, which was the most expensive in their range, was £162. 15s which equates to around just under £2,700 - but that was just for the guitar! The case cost an eye-watering £14. 14s extra = £240+ !
Cheers, Lionel