Another Vibra Artist.

[mgeek]

Paul- no offence intended...I do think Jim Burns' reputation is solid enough that it can take a little ribbing on the subject of the quality of his earlier work though. I'm fully aware of his pioneering nature, but he does get a lot more credit than anyone else- the Watkins brothers, Henry Weill, Alan Wootton- whichever shadowy figure came up with the early Dallas guitars...rightly so, when judged on his later instruments, but the early days? Less for me.

I mean- Jim's 'palm gauge' for neck shapes is one thing, but Jim's eye guage for fret positioning is a whole different matter!

Thanks for clearing up the Weill/Burns split! Not sure where I heard that now. Whatever happened- I think it was for the best, as they both went on to bigger and MUCH better things!

[Jagger]

Thanks again Paul.A font of information.

Your neck can be repaired by installing a new rosewood fingerboard, suitably shaped and fretted to counteract the twist and provide a suitably straight surface.

Very simple idea when somebody's told you about it.Ta.This has suddenly moved the swingometer in a positive direction.I know I won't get an original Burns out of it but then it's already too far gone for that.

(three, rather than two

Memory again. Of course, if I actually find the faceplate etc. my memory will suddenly become perfect on the subject.

The end results were often quite confusing, as the six rotary controls then interacted and no longer corresponded to an obvious three volume/three tone configuration.

Oh yes.That I do remember well.That is definitely how mine was wired.Many an hour was whittled away trying to find the correct sound but eventually you'd bump into something interesting.And then lose it.But there was always another amazing tone around the corner.Haven't worked out how they work on the Gretsch yet and there's only four pots and a three-way switch on that.Six pots,a two way switch and a three way switch makes for a huge amount of variation whatever way they're wired.

Oh well,I guess I just better get up in the loft and have a look.See if I left my memory up there.

[dusty fretz]

Hi Will,
I certainly wasn't taking offence at the criticisms being levelled at Jim's early efforts, just putting these oldies into the context of their time. I'm well aware of the nature and failings of such beasts (and their maker!), having owned and worked on quite a few, although I must admit that fret positioning was not one of their most apparent faults - perhaps you had a particularly 'rogue' example? Regardless of such deficiencies, these instruments were better than anything else the UK could boast back then and Alan Wootton's Supersounds were ahead of all home-grown competition, as the latter didn't emerge until 1959. The first Burns-Weill branded electric emerged in the January of that year, this being very similar to the still-born Supersound Ike Isaacs model, and it was followed four months later by the Burns-Weill range proper. The earliest version of the Dallas Tuxedo was initially advertised in April 1959 and the first Vox solids appeared in the October, while the original (single-cutaway) Watkins Rapiers weren't promoted until 1960. These dates certainly contradict some of the information found on the internet, but they're gleaned from back issues of Melody Maker and cold print tends to be more accurate than mere memory or opinion! Along with other info, such facts confirm that Jim Burns was, for better or worse, the first in the UK solid electric field, so he deserves due recognition. However, I wholeheartedly agree that later Burns and Fenton-Weill instruments were certainly better made, likewise many other electrics, as makers and players alike became more aware of what was required. Even the Tuxedo improved, with the Stuart Darkins' built chassis now equipped with electrics supplied by Henry Weill.

Graham,
Good luck with your hunt for the errant Burns bits. By the way, if your Gretsch follows the original early control configuration, the three-way selector is partnered by a volume per pickup, plus master volume and tone. A bit overkill regarding level regulation, but at least all controls stay constant, function-wise!

[mgeek]

Great stuff Paul- thanks for sharing

I'm super interested in the early history of British guitar making- any plans for an article or book on the subject? Even a compilation of all the relevent print ads would be amazing. As you well know, there aren't exactly tonnes of some of the more obscure instruments out there, so sometimes pics are all we have!

*edit* to be fair- my ex bass is the coolest thing in the history of guitarmaking- a sycamore martian cricket bat, and it's just above the twelfth that things go awry. Maybe it's an early one and they improved as they went along?

Certainly in the picture of the early 'fenton' on the Rory Gallagher website, which HAS to be an early one given it's similarity to the supersound shapes, has visibly wonky frets, whilst the RPG1 or 2 (can never remember which is which) seems okay

[dusty fretz]

Hi Will,
Without wishing to further derail this thread, I can tell you that, as I mentioned in an earlier topic elsewhere on this forum, I'm currently preparing a major feature on the formative five years of the UK electric guitar scene, i.e. 1958-62. Much has been written about the music of this period and the artists involved, but there's been very little coverage concerning the tools of this early trade. Literature was very scarce back then, as many makers thought rock music would be shortlived, likewise the instruments employed, so they manufactured and marketed the latter accordingly. My article was originally scheduled for last year, but the project has proved bigger than I envisaged and I'm still amassing appropriate archive material. Please be patient - all will be revealed eventually!

With this in mind, I'm intrigued about your mention of an early Fenton pictured on the Rory Gallagher website. I've found the 1959 Burns-Weill RP1G (incorrectly labelled a 1958 RP16) but nothing else, so please can you point me to the relevant page?

[RayL]

Paul,

How short was the scale of the 'Ike Isaacs Short Scale Guitar'? Jim Burns' collaboration with Henry Weill produced guitars with a more conventional 'Gibson' scale of 24 3/4", so why was his first solo project such a short scale? And why 24 frets with such a short scale? Was it input from Ike Isaacs? From your interviews with Jim Burns, did you find out if it was all his own idea or whether he was taking advise from this established guitar player?

And why go to the expense of having that elaborate fixed neck with its time-consuming shaped curves? The double-cutaway was obviously inspired by the Statocaster's double-cutaway, so why not a simpler, cheaper, bolt-on design? By late 1959, Apache was not only a success but the guitar that produced 'that sound' was a coveted item, so why did Jim go his own sweet way?

Oh, and have any of the 'Ike Isaacs Short Scale' guitars survived?

Ray

[mgeek]

Hi Paul- here you go

http://www.rorygallagher.com/#/archives ... eill_black

Obviously very unusual...look at those pickups! I'm guessing it's an early one due to, as I said, the resemblance to the supersound, and the apparently flat fretboard and wonky fretting.

Have to say...I find it kinda frustrating that these two are now a permanent exhibit, and won't ever get used in anger again. I use my Fenton Weills (stereomaster, dualmasters, contrabass, bell carousel) and Burns Vista Sonic every day! Not sure I like the Museum/Hoarding aspect of it.

One final Burns/Weill related question. Have you ever seen a B/W RPG2? I've only seen 'Weill' versions of this shape, as a guitar and a scan of a Fenton Weill ad that suggests at least a few were made under that branding, but never a B/W version- though I've come across 3 RPG1's online, and a few Fentons

[dusty fretz]

So many questions - this'll teach me to horn-in on a thread! I'm still trying to get my contribution finished to The Squier Book! Apologies again to Graham for these various off-topic detours, although they are loosely related!

Firstly to reply to Ray's queries.
I don't know the actual scale length of the Supersound Ike Isaacs, but the earliest Supersound (circa mid '58 and so far certainly the oldest known UK-made solid six-string) spreads 22 frets over a 23" scale, while others come in at 23.25", 24" and 25.25", suggesting that Jim was still experimenting. Jim was in contact with many of the London-based players, including Ike of course, most of whom were jazzers. Many played Gibsons and the like, which were 24.75" scale instruments, while some, such as the Byrdland, measured 23.5". The shorter length made it easier to accomplish the long stretch chords and lead lines employed in jazz. My conversations with Jim confirmed that he took their comments and requirements on board, because in reality he was catering for this crowd, not young rock players or beginners, as indicated by the comparatively high prices of his early efforts.

I assume your mention of 24 frets refers to the Vibra Artist (although the original Short Scale Deluxe Artistes model employed only 22), but again it was to satisfy the needs of those players who could best exploit a double-octave span. The accompanying heel-less neck made it much easier to reach the upper frets, while glued-necks were still very much the norm in 1959, with only the early Grazioso/Futurama offering a bolt-on alternative. The Shadows' Apache actually didn't hit the charts until July 1960, so the Fender Stratocaster had yet to exert a major influence in terms of looks, construction or sound.

I've still to unearth a Supersound Ike Isaacs. Jim told me he'd made around 20, but now I know that these actually appeared under the Burns-Weill banner. By the time this Supersound was advertised in December 1958, the company had severed association with both Jim and Ike, so it looks like this guitar was still-born. Jim immediately enlisted the aid of Henry Weill, who told me he supplied the necessary electrics for what was a very similar solid. I've now tracked down pictures of four players who bought this first Burns-Weill back in early 1959, including a young Colin Green in his pre-Nero days.

[dusty fretz]

On with 'Part Two' and the points recently raised by Will.

Firstly my thanks, Will, for directing me to that Burns-Weill single-cutaway solid on the Rory Gallagher website. It certainly is an early example and could be viewed as the 'missing link' between the similarly-shaped, Ike Isaacs-derived Burns-Weill (see my previous reply to RayL) and the Burns-Weill range proper, introduced around May 1959. Henry Weill's involvement is confirmed by the scratchplate, but the pickups (presumably original) are actually Besson-branded units intended for acoustic guitar use, rather than Weill-made single-coils. Coincidentally, Besson were the first to advertise the Burns-Weill line at that time, including an earlier mention of a 'short-scale solid' at £35 - possibly this model? That's £16 cheaper than the presumably preceding Ike Isaacs style Burns-Weill, which in turn was £15 less than the ill-fated Supersound original.

Unfortunately, both Rory Gallagher Burns-Weills are in a poor state and would certainly benefit from some sympathetic restoration. I've not seen a Burns-Weill RP2G 'in the flesh' , but I do have some relevant literature in my research archive All these oldies are unsurprisingly few and far between these days, which is why I'm trying to concoct some magazine coverage while at least a few of those from the period are still standing!

Okay, it's back to Graham's Vibra Artist and all things Squier for me!

[mgeek]

Cheers Paul- interesting stuff.

Yeah- I've got the missing knobs and strap button for the RPG1, think I have a bridge somewhere, and I could make a one off red escutcheon in no time out of 3mm red perspex. Shame...

You know- I wonder if the scratchplate of the Besson pickuped model DOES show any Henry Weill touches...I'm guessing the use of the little red pickup selector switches came from him- never seen a two pickup B/W, W or early F/W without one. Could it be that this was Jim's 'work in progress' when the partnership began to kick off? Just a thought.

I look forward to the article!