Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby fenderplucker » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:16 pm

Dave, Terry,

There were a number of factors that contributed to the lack of "That Sound" at the Reunited tour (and most others). Here the benchmark is the Kingston concert live sound as it is very difficult to reproduce the Abbey Road recorded sound live without a lot of fiddling, not really a proposition for a major concert tour.

Firstly, the sound heard was mainly through the PA system and not the same as straight from the amps (I know as I heard the raw sound in the rehearsal studio in Perth and it had much more "growl", more like the Kingston sound). Secondly, he doesn't adjust the amps for any different sounds for different tunes. Thirdly, he now mainly uses the bridge pickup on stage whereas many of the originals used middle or neck. But probably most importantly, Hank's playing style has changed considerably over the years. I did a video on this latter aspect some time ago using Apache as the example:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXp9gMU0pLc&feature=youtu.be . Players like Colin actually play more like the old Hank than Hank now does, and that has a major impact on the sound.

Finally, with regard to cost, most TVS3 owners seem to think that the cost is fully justified, as evidenced from their unsolicited testimonials available on the TVS web site: http://www.tvsspecialtyproducts.com/testimonials.html .Dave might be interested to have a look at what he wrote back in 2008.

Paul.
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby dave robinson » Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:00 pm

Hi Terry, just to let you know that I'm not blaming the TVS3 entirely over the guitar sound on the Reunion tour, but the point I was making was the guitar sound was OK but disappointing, given what was being used.
Paul, regarding what I said back in 2008, I stand by those statements, but some of those same people have told me that my sound hasn't changed since then. It's possible my tone and playing style contributed somewhat.
Today other units are pleasing me just as much and the complimentary comments are still there from people every time we gig. Not one person has approached me and told me that my sound has suffered through not having the TVS3 any longer.
It is very probably that I have learned a lot more about my guitar and amps and echoes since then and I maintain that I can't justify that kind of outlay for the small difference it may or may not make. Maybe if the opportunity arose to buy a TVS3 at an acceptable price, who knows I may be tempted, but for now we move on. :)
Dave Robinson
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby abstamaria » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:46 am

Re Hank on stage, I read that he was told to keep to the bridge position, because switching led to volume and other differences that affected the settings the sound engineers used for the PA system in the large venues. The sound engineers said they would adjust for tone using the controls on the board.

The Beatles eventually did not like to play on stage because, apart from the screaming audience, they could no longer near the sound they wanted to produce.

Sound is best appreciated, in my view, in much smaller venues or in a studio. An, as to whether one is able to replicate the original Shadows sound, only an A-to-B comparison in a controlled environment will be accurate. Memory can be misleading. (And, with most of us hovering around 70, hearing may not be accurate as well!)

Ultimately, for an objective analysis and comparison, one must resort to electronic devices that measure to the millisecond, as physicists are prone to do. I’m glad they’re around.

That’s funny what you wrote, Paul, that Colin now sounds more like Hank did in the early days than Hank. I can understand how true that would be. Hank as a musician evolved and still is evolving, but we crusaders are still looking to produce That Sound. We are lucky to have that quest.

Andy
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby abstamaria » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:36 am

Paul,

I’ve watched your video Apache Journey before, but watched it again since you noted it above in your message.

https://youtu.be/mXp9gMU0pLc

That is quite amazing, what you’ve done there. I thought I should thank you for taking the time and effort to do that.

Best wishes,

Andy
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby fenderplucker » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:28 am

Hi Andy,

Thanks for those kind words, it makes it all worthwhile!

Regards,

Paul.
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby scouserjoe2 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:26 pm

Paul,

I have just watched your Apache Journey video as I had not seen it before; it is interesting what becomes more obvious when someone helps to point things out to you. I suppose it is similar in my field as a photographer - an amateur does not always recognise the finer points of a photograph nor the difference between a good camera and a cheap one until a professional points it out. What particularly struck me in Paul's video was the amazing similarity between the opening and closing sound clips due, yes, in part to the capabilities of the TVS3, but also down to the tone obtained from the guitar and amp, and also Gary's deliberate playing style. I have to admit that I thought the closing clip was the opening clip repeated - and not the simulation from Gary.

From what has been said, and particularly from what has been pointed out by Paul, my original question at the start of this thread has been answered. I am now convinced that there IS a big difference between the best units and the remainder; yes, the best do stand out when you listen carefully. Perhaps with being away from the music scene for a while I have lost that sharpness in identifying the subtle differences and nuances in tone and sound.

Thanks again Paul,

Cheers

Ian
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby Gary Allen » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:26 pm

A big shout out to all the people that made it happen over the years,it got a lot of people back in the loop again,eventually going to concerts,getting to meet the shads and some even lucky enough to play or work with them.A lot of enjoyment playing to those shads bts minus Hank...even after all those years I still think the middle bit in the savage is an overdub...lol. regards gary
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby fenderplucker » Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:31 am

Hi Ian,

Thanks for those kind comments.

One small correction, it was me playing Apache in that video, not Gary. We also did some "how to play" and how to get "that sound" videos (links on the TVS web site) and in those Gary does Apache and some other tunes I do Atlantis, just for a change!

Best Regards,

Paul.
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby scouserjoe2 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:43 pm

Paul,

Now you're really questioning my hearing :-). In the comments following the last audio sample you clearly say, and I quote "Now this was played by Gary Taylor and he's tried to emulate that dead \D' string by ... etc". Am I missing something here ?? :-)

Cheers,

Ian
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby fenderplucker » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:39 am

Hi Ian,

My apologies, you are quite right! I got it confused with the version on the TVS Jukebox that I did.

Blame it on "Old Timer's"!!

Regards,

Paul.
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