Kinman pickup problem

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Kinman pickup problem

Postby Tone » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:05 pm

A friend builds guitars and I've just bought a very nice replica Strat from him. The high spec includes the earlier version of the Kinman Hank Marvin pickups. After I'd bought it I found that the sound from pickup positions 1, 2 and 3 was exactly what it should be but the sound from positions 2 and 4 was very quiet, thin and weedy and nothing like the 'out of phase' sound I was expecting.

I took the guitar back to my friend and he admitted that he wasn't an expert on Kinman pickup wiring (neither am I) and, moreover, he had little personal experience of the out of phase positions because he never uses anything other than the bridge pickup when playing. Fortunately, he had another guitar for sale fitted with an identical scratchplate and Kinmans so we did an A/B comparison. This other guitar sounded exactly as I expected from positions 2 and 4 and my friend agreed that my guitar wasn't right. He took off the scratchplate and inspected the wiring but, with his limited knowledge, he couldn't find a fault.

The problem was solved as far as I was concerned by him swapping over the two scratchplate/pickup assemblies so I now have a guitar that I'm delighted with. My friend sent an email to Kinman asking for comments and advice (although the pickups were unused he'd had them 'in stock' for quite some time so the guarantee had expired). He told me today that Kinman had replied and referred him to a section of their website which says that the out of phase sounds are not available with the Hank pickups and positions 2 and 4 give sounds of a lower volume (which is exactly what I'd experienced).

I was amazed by this because the second set of identical pickups gives the classic out of phase sounds I expected, as do the other two Strats I have with the same HM pickups. What Kinman are saying cannot be correct because, if it is, they are supplying pickups where two of the positions are effectively useless.

As I said, the problem is solved as far as I'm concerned but I don't want my friend to lose out. He's not a member of this forum so I said I'd put the situation before the knowledgeable experts on here.

Any thoughts and advice will be greatly appreciated.

Tony
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Re: Kinman pickup problem

Postby davec » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:19 pm

Hi Tony,

You're getting confused by some wrong terminology. The original Strat 3-way switch gave sounds from each pickup alone. Early players (including Hank) found that they could jam the switch between selections and thus combine the outputs of two adjacent pickups and get a new sound that definitely was not thin and weak. This sound is commonly (and wrongly) called "out-of-phase".

Normally, the two pickups are joined in parallel and the two "hot wires" are connected together. This means that the wave-forms from the pickups add together and you end up with "phase-augmentation". This is the sound that you are expecting to hear.

It is perfectly possible to flip the wires from the centre pickup so that hot is connected to cold of the outer pickups. This will give you "phase-cancellation" where the wave forms subtract. People will leap in and tell you that this sounds "thin and weak". I'm here to tell that it ain't necessarily so. E.g. "Sultans of Swing" is Position 2 (bridge and middle) using high output Texas Specials that are wired to be phase-cancelling.

However, Kinman point out that the noise-cancelling design of their pickups means that any attempt at phase-cancellation definitely will sound thin and weak. They are not saying that you can't have "out-of-phase" (by which they mean phase-cancellation) but that if you try it you won't like it -- and you should stick to phase-augmentation.

My guess is that your faulty set has got the centre pickup's wires flipped because someone has tried phase-cancellation. If so -- try flipping them back.

Regards,
DaveC.
Last edited by davec on Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kinman pickup problem

Postby bor64 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:28 am

Hi Tone,

I'm with DaveC.
I've also two sets of the first Kinman HM pu's and they work great in the positions 2 and 4.

On one point I have different info about Sultans Of Swing, it's recorded on either 1961 Stratocaster #68354 or 1961/62 Stratocaster #80470.
On the position of the bridge and middle, the original pu's and one of the strats had a Dimarzio FS1 in the neck position.

Fender Texas Specials in 77/78....?
Fender first "overwound" pu was the X-1 bridge pu in 79/80 on the strat and later on the standard stratocaster.
Texas Specials came later when the SRV myth was on it's top.
Funny thing is, when they measured the original No 1 SRV guitar pu's again recently, the pu's are just of normal strength!!
When they asked old employees of Fender, they admit it ...the Texas Specials were just a sales gimmick to boost sales!!!
They fitted excellent in the story of the SRV myth, because he had that powerful tone.... so enter the signature SRV strat and the sales department mumbo jumbo to fool us all and make money on a lie!

Cheers Rob
"afterwards everyone is clairvoyant"
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Re: Kinman pickup problem

Postby davec » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:27 pm

Hi Rob,

You're right about the "Texas Specials". I was just passing on what MK himself said -- but I now realize that he was actually talking about his Signature Model and how it was able to replicate the SOS sound.

I've tried wiring Kinmans in phase-cancellation mode and I can confirm that they sound horrible -- and they stop being noise-cancelling.

Regards,
DaveC.
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