Shadows tracks revisited and lack of echo

[dave robinson]

I've found time over the past few weeks to have a close listen to my cherished 7" & 12" vinyl, along side some of the new CDs that I bought from Leo's Den and a couple of things really stood out for me during the exercise. Firstly the sound of the 7" vinyl compared to the CD, I couldn't believe the difference there was and the magic of the 7" single is something that is a mystery to me because it isn't a massive difference, I even think it appears to sound better just because you see the lovely green Columbia disc spinning on the turntable. I'd be interested in other people's thoughts here, because over the years I have defended the digital form as perfection when others have mentioned it.
The purest form of course is what is heard in the control room as it's being recorded, then the master tape, then it degenerates after that - but how much ?

The other thing that has struck me is the small amount of echo Hank actually used, compared to what everyone else's perception is when you hear people playing in the clubs and shows. I think to an extent we were brainwashed when the Alesis Quadraverb appeared twenty years ago. Those patches to my ears anyway are vastly exaggerated when compared o the actual recordings, so much so that we have all struggled to copy the sound. OK, some of the tunes have plenty of echo, but many do not have the amounts we were reading about on the accompanying sheets with those units - though we were all happy to accept those advisory notes. I recently bought a load of CDs with everything Cliff & The Shadows recorded in the early sixties and have had time to digest it all. I also treat myself to a TEAC combined turntable and cassette player that records everything onto CD and having not had a turntable since we got the CDs over twenty years ago it had been an eye opener. What I do hear is a lot of Abbey Road reverb added - that isn't the Meazzi. I've also said on several occasions that Hanks sound is the sound of Move it though he wasn't on it, so it has to be a studio thing. Some of the records were made before the Meazzi came into play and they still sound like Cliff & The Shadows.
Again I'm interested in other folks opinions and experiences in this area and I honestly believe that guys and gals who play this music would benefit from going back and having a listen.

[Hank2k]

This was talked about fairly recently on facebook with users of the Blue Nebula echo stating the echo patches were wrong as they were getting a much drier sound than the echo patches on something like an Alesis Q2.

I think the patches from EFTP are designed to try and capture the recorded sound that we hear on the records when compression and eq plus reverb are added to the final mix. (Just my opinion!)

Its also different environments with different levels of echo etc. When i first had the blue nebula and recorded some tracks at home it was very dry to my ear so i edited a lot of the patches and they worked great. When i then took the unit out live there was far too much echo etc that i reverted back to the original patches for live playing. Equalisation changes the echo dominance quite surprisingly too.

I very recently did a similar thing to yourself and dug out Dads original vinyls of the shadows hits and was surprised how different the sound was to what my ear was expecting. It is a much drier sound but i do still think the meazzi creates a more airy sound of the guitar than the modern units. Its an endless debate but good fun!

[dave robinson]

I'm so pleased that I am not alone in discovering these anomalies Steve. There are some tunes by The Shadows on which I hear no echo being used Theme From Shane being a recent one I studied. I would have insisted that there was echo in there but I can't hear any repeats, just ambience.Like you I have tweaked the machines at home and then got on stage to find that it sounds horrendous and yes, tone does affect the echo. I would like o get my hands on a Meazzi to re-visit the tone and magic that it adds now that I understand more about it, but as I mentioned on my original post, Ernie Shear's sound on Move It was magical and there was no Meazzi there.

[rockinscott]

Hi Dave

I can't really comment on the sound of vinyl as I don't really have any and my dad dose't have his player anymore. But it is noticeable on some remastered tracks (not only Cliff and The Shads). I think we have all been guilty of of going too heavy on the echo as it sounds nice I normally set my core tone dry, I based it from the outtake undubbed Do You Wanna Dance, then bring in the echo. As you know I use the Ese so its always set by ear. There's so many variables that you need to make adjustments, even just moving my amp to another spot in the room. It would be nice to have a plug and play and have the same sound dialled in no matter where you played but that's just not gonna happen. I agree with what you and Steve have mention already.

Scott

[David Martin]

Steve's comment about EFTP is very timely. It certainly WAS designed to replicate the sounds on the records, not emulate the echo machine.

[rogera]

I couldn't agree more with Dave. There is a good deal of Abbey Road reverb added on most if not all of the early tracks.
One of the most obvious examples is "Dance On" particularly if you can listen to one channel and then the other.

[Teflon]

……... and dug out Dads original vinyls of the shadows hits ………..

Ouch!! I'm suddenly feeling much older now

I also notice my original "green label" 45 of Apache seems to have more presence (for want of a better word) than subsequent re-issues (vinyl or CD). I suspect it's down to the inevitable re-mastering that has taken place. The re-mastered recordings are no doubt cleaner, but I can't help thinking something has been lost along the way.

Cliff

[dave robinson]

……... and dug out Dads original vinyls of the shadows hits ………..

Ouch!! I'm suddenly feeling much older now

I also notice my original "green label" 45 of Apache seems to have more presence (for want of a better word) than subsequent re-issues (vinyl or CD). I suspect it's down to the inevitable re-mastering that has taken place. The re-mastered recordings are no doubt cleaner, but I can't help thinking something has been lost along the way.

Cliff

That's what I'm getting Cliff, but in a beneficial way

[roger bayliss]

Steve's comment about EFTP is very timely. It certainly WAS designed to replicate the sounds on the records, not emulate the echo machine.

I am in agreement too about this that Charlie did analyse the echos from recordings to get levels and timings and as such they were affected by compression and drive ,eq and mastering compression too.

The eTap2HW units won me over because I understand Piet based his work on actual machines data and as such they are a bit drier sounding. Not sure how the TVS team (Paul Rossiter ) went about his analysis, but he is on here to comment on this process.

[fenderplucker]

Roger,

The patches supplied with a TVS3 are based upon analysis of the original vinyl recordings and in some cases the relative head amplitudes differed from the "theoretical" values expected from the machines, probably due to head wear, misalignment or tinkering with the presets, where available.

However, the perceived echo levels also depend upon playing style (mainly attack), string gauge and guitar setup. Furthermore, as mentioned numerous times above, the echo settings from the recordings often do not work well in a live environment largely due to loudness and room acoustics, and so there is no "correct" setting in a patch. For these reasons, most machines include the ability to vary the overall echo level and duration from simple front-panel adjustments for those who don't want to delve into patch settings.

I think that Hank understands these issues very well and I had to decrease the echo levels in most of his TVS3 patches when setting up for the Reunited tour, and I believe that Charlie had the same experience in setting up his Quadraverbs for the Final Tour.

Finally, I agree with Dave's observation about the "mojo" of the original vinyl recordings, particularly the 7" singles. Whether real or just nostalgia, who cares, it's the experience that counts!