Shadows tracks revisited and lack of echo

[Didier]

The use of echo by Hank has varied a lot over the years, not only on records but also on stage, my personal experience on stage is the following :

- Paris Olympia (1961) : Lots of echo, much the same as the the "Kingston" album. Excellent sound. No change of settings during the whole concert.
- Paris Olympia (1964) : Hardly any noticeable echo (Burns guitar). Disappointing sound.
- Brighton (2004, Final Tour) : Moderate echo, good sound, but not as good as in 1961.
- Paris (2005, Final Tour) : The same.
- Paris (2009, Final Reunion) : The same.

[roger bayliss]

Also what should be understood about the difference in the original vinyl recordings and later reissues, tapes,, CD etc, is that all have different mastering requirements and even though the original tapes are used to do the subsequent re releases the sound changes from taking the original recordings on tape and running it through newer mastering processes.

Some mastering actually affects certain frequencies , and as far as I can remember some frequencies were actually cut to make space such as on EP and any CD for instance that crams many tunes onto a disk needs a certain amount of frequency treatment to make room.

I think mastering would be one of the elements responsible for the change in sound , apart from using newer and different gear for reissues etc.

Tape bias is another thing to affect recordings the way some frequencies are cut and boosted in the recording process. Dolby used much cutting and then re addition of certain frequencies as an example.

[roger bayliss]

Dave Robinson,

Dave you say you recorded the old vinyl recordings onto CD , what does the recording of those sound like re recorded ? Just curious

[dave robinson]

Dave Robinson,

Dave you say you recorded the old vinyl recordings onto CD , what does the recording of those sound like re recorded ? Just curious

That's an interesting question Roger, I only copied a few of our own albums so far and I put them into Logic Pro X to enhance them and they sound better, but I will do the Shadows early singles and see if the 'magic' I hear transfers to CD.
I'll be back to let you know.

[abstamaria]

I will have to buy a turntable and maybe tube amps again. Then I will have to look for the records ...

Andres

[Stuart]

There does seem to be many remixed and re mastered versions of most of the Shadows material out there...not to mention different recordings of the same tunes.I wonder if this accounts for the differences in sound on the different media.Bear in mind that within a little, a cd player is a cd player is a cd player and will produce virtually identical playback.A record played on a record deck on the other hand is subject to huge audio differences due to the cartridge type, stylus and of course the choice of RIAA frequency correction circuit used by the designer.This last factor alone could introduce a very different frequency balance on the playback.The echo produced by older tape echo units was of very limited frequency range so that an differing balance in the mid range response of the record deck could produce an apparently quite different mix.

[JimN]

... as far as I can remember some frequencies were actually cut to make space such as on EP and any CD for instance that crams many tunes onto a disk needs a certain amount of frequency treatment to make room.

That is certainly true for EPs and LPs (the microgroove applications) but not CD. When cutting a master on disc, bass needs to be limited to prevent the risk of stylus jump (that is generally true of all vinyl cutting, including for single) but the more audio is crammed onto a disc, the more the amplitude range needs to be significantly compressed.

The twenty-track LPs that were all the rage in the 1970s (Ronco, K-tel, etc, as well as "20 Golden Greats") were pushing up against the limits of what could be squeezed onto an LP, which was never intended for a playing time of an hour. As a result, the contents were often compressed to death: you could hear the reduction in dynamic range!

[dave robinson]

Stuart and Jim each have very valid points there and I agree with all of them. The way those K-tel and Ronco albums lacked dynamics was awful.

Now here's the blockbuster ! I recorded vinyl single of Apache directly onto CD ten minutes ago and it has come out identical.Yes, all the magic that I was trying to describe has transferred to CD, I keep playing them back to back and the sound is slightly different between the two when I compare the vinyl with a factory recorded CD, but not the one I recorded myself.
Earlier today I asked Joy to have a listen to the vinyl version on 7 " against the CD version of the same mix from Columbia and she thought the vinyl version sounded more 'clangy', her own word. I had asked her to close her eyes to prevent her seeing which one was being played and she described the CD as being smoother. I then let her see what I was up to and we had a chat about it what and why she liked the best. Her preference was the CD. Now that would be the sound in it's purest possible form as it is derived straight from the master tape, whereas the disc is stamped after plates have been made and re- EQd in the cutting room. I liked the 7" best, but my ears aren't as good as hers.
I love that word 'CLANGY'. I guess there must be a CLANG knob on the cutting room desk - I want one.

[abstamaria]

When CDs first came out, I was ecstatic. No more surface noise! Perfect sound forever! I bought a Phillips CD player and excitedly set it up. And was so disappointed. There was something missing.

I later became a very serious audiophile, with tube (valve) preamps and amps, some single-ended, etc., a variety of speakers including Quad electrostatics (remember those?), turntables, silver cables, DA converters, etc., and CD players that improved much over time. The CDs themselves improved much too, and the there were specialist companies like Chesky that produced remarkable CDs.

I have friends who remain deep-end audiophiles. I find stil, sitting in their studios, how immersive the experience is. And in general how involving a good vinyl is compared to its CD version. And that the specialist CDs are really excellent now.

I read that many young people nowadays actually prefer the sound of MP3s and will choose that over other formats in comparison tests. I suppose that is the effect of conditioning. Very few probably know what live music sounds like, except in rock concerts.

I think I have (or had) good ears, in that I could hear differences between components, including amplifiers. I once bought an expensive stereo amp In Hong Kong and was disappointed whenI listened to it at home. I wanted it to sound good, as it was so difficult yo get it, but in the end I disposed of it Good ears are a curse sometimes

Hearing deteriorates with age, but I think I’ll buy a good turntable. And a new state-of-the art CD player. There must have been Improvements since I bought mine over a decade ago. I’ll ask my audiophile friends. I’ll have to listen to good systems more; I may have started preferring MP3s!

Best,

Andres