That Other Sound

[fenderplucker]

Getting the right echo timings and amplitudes is just the tip the iceberg in replicating the sound of the Meazzi's, as noted by Dave and others.

Most of their characteristic sound comes from the way both the dry and echo signals are distorted and compressed. For example, if you play the top 3 strings of an "open" D or E chord at the 12th position with a properly set up Meazzi, Long Tom or TVS3, you will be able to hear a whole raft of additional tones resulting from intermodulation distortion, some harmonically related and some not. In particular, there will be many tones at fairly low frequencies and these are responsible for thickening up the sound and giving it a bit of "growl". The amount of these tones depends upon the drive level, and that is just the dry signal. Add to that the additional artefacts introduced by the compression and distortion of the echo signal and their interaction with the dry signal, then add a bit of wow and flutter, and you start to get an idea of the complexity involved. While I haven't tried the Strymon, I have yet to hear any digital device that comes close to replicating these effects in any accurate way, including those with analog devices like FET's in the signal path. Of course, for many players these subtleties are not regarded as important and so any echo unit that generates roughly the right echo timings is fine (and probably a lot less expensive). Also, many may have no interest whatsoever in replicating a Meazzi sound and will want to explore a whole range of other sounds and for these the digital platforms provide a lot of flexibility.

Paul.

[dave robinson]

Thanks for that insight Paul, I can't begin to tell you how much inspiration you have given me through your meticulous work.
To be fair, not many of us understand what's actually going on with the sound, but we do hear it and wonder what's happening. It varies of course with the attitude of pick attack and how each of us plays and I enjoy listening and learning more about the sound, the more I play.

[abstamaria]

To respond to the original query, this chart from TVS might be helpful. If someone has a clearer copy, I would appreciate it if that can be sent to me.

[Garystrat]

I too very much appreciate all the information and background shared so generously by Paul and the TVS team over the years, the experience and design that went into the TVS 3 rightly gained recognition by Hank for the way the preamp analogue and digital combination gave that added authenticity. This was the catalyst that inspired me to rethinking the “magic” in the circuitry of tube preamp some years ago and try to achieve something closer to this on a more modest budget.

Paul describes the influencing factors that go beyond pure head timings and their complexities well, also if one starts to look at the electro/mechanical nature of the vintage units it was the quirkiness and variables adding much to the subtleties of that sought after character (although, they probably didn’t consider this to be a positive back in the day). There were also the different head types (i.e. drum/tape) and timings which all influence the tone and character.

These things can be quite subjective and as Paul says he hasn’t tried the Volante, but I came across this Guitar World review, I thought the first paragraph under “Performance” was interesting in view of his comments:

https://www.guitarworld.com/gear/review ... in-between

It seems to me this is what Strymon are describing under the headings “Vintage Vibe” and “Multi-Head Maven” , you need to scroll down to about half way in the link below (Maven = expert or connoisseur, Yep …. I had to look that one that up! LOL):

https://www.strymon.net/product/volante/

For those used to patches it’s possibly a bit like taking the stabilisers off your first bike, a bit wobbly at first, but once you get going ……..

Regards

Gary

[RogerCook]

I echo the comments about the value of the TVS data. It's really useful for so many things. I agree that whilst they can get close, solid state circuits don't really capture that elusive 'magjc' of valves. I also think there is a major contribution from electromagnetic tape saturation and often wonder if something similar could be achieved with inductors.

[abstamaria]

A friend of mine was very much into photography and took beautiful photos. But he gave up the hobby when the format turned fully to digital. It was sitting in front of the computer, rather than taking photos, he explained.

I feel much the same way about working with pedals. I was lucky to have a little cash and so simply bought an AC30 and a TVS3. I prefer simply to plug in. (Configuring a new smart TV terrifies me.)

[scouserjoe2]

Hi

A friend of mine was very much into photography and took beautiful photos. But he gave up the hobby when the format turned fully to digital. It was sitting in front of the computer, rather than taking photos, he explained.

I know that this isn't relevant to the subject of the thread and for that I apologise, but as a professional photographer and seeing this comment I had to speak out and say that photography has not turned 'fully to digital'. Film is still widely used and often preferred by many creative amateurs and professionals alike. It is no different to music really .. you can have music in digital format, download it or buy on CD, but millions still prefer, and there is a trend towards, analogue and the old 45's and 33 rpm long playing plastic.

If your friend really enjoyed his photography I would persuade him to think again and carry on what he loved doing.

Ian

[abstamaria]

Thank you, Ian. I know that, as with vinyl, there is still a following for film. But largely photography is into digital, probably irretrievably. I am presently in Stanford, California, to attend the graduation of a young friend. The photographer for her graduation photos showed me his new top-of-the-line Nikon, now mirrorless. No more SLRs.The advances are relentless.

I am afraid it is too late to reel back my friend. My wife is a writer and some years ago photographed professionally too, but focused on cultural heritage. She studied at the International Center of Photography in New York decades ago. The firm I worked in in New York had original Ansel Adams prints on their walls. They were luminous.

Apologies too for the diversion, gentleman. Even the Shadows world seems sliding to digital. Apart from the TVS3, I hope I do not have to.

Andy

[dave robinson]

For me it's like this.
Playing guitar and 'feel' for the music will NEVER become digitised in the human sense, i'e. your personal input. That's something that the player will ALWAYS be in control of and that's what makes us unique and what the end product will sound like.
The echo box and amplifiers , whether valve, solid state or computerised, are tools to re-create those early sounds that we cherish so dearly, but to me, as long as the end product represents the correct 'pleasing' sound, it matters little as long as it sounds 'right'.
I have real valve amps, the 1960 Vox AC30/4, hand built exactly as it was back in the day by Rod Jenks and it is tremendous.
My Meazzi Echomatic is solid state, a little later than Hank''s was, but it is mechanical and running a tape and sounds ''spot on' for all those early Shads hits. That said, I would challenge anyone to tell the difference between the Meazzi and my Strymon Volante or the TVS3 on the same settings in a live mix or recording, even if I were to use the Kemper, Zoom G5n, Fender Deluxe Reverb Tone Master of the humble Vox MV-50 AC.
What I'm saying is, all the old gear is great, as well as all the modern gear - as long as you know how to get the best from it.
Same goes for my photography, which isn't as intense for me but none the less a pleasing hobby. For years I used my Canon AE1 but about eight years ago moved on to a modestly priced Nikon D-3200 which takes just as good pictures for my needs. Granted, I'm no expert and would maybe see pitfalls if I went deeper into wanting to alter depth of field etc, but nobody has EVER commented that my photographs were better with the Canon SLR, or indeed my guitar sound when comparing the 'old school' with modern technology.
It's what it is - progress, and you either learn to use it to your advantage and get on with playing and enjoying the music and memories from your photographs, or you sit there counting rivets and complaining about it. I know which camp I'm in . . . .

[phil kelly]

Dave cant help but comment here,
you say ....
I I
"I have real valve amps, the 1960 Vox AC30/4, hand built exactly as it was back in the day by Rod Jenks and it is tremendous "

Answer as i was told... The amp used on the various early material was a 1960 2nd circuit ac15, ( not an ac30/4, which was only used on Kon Tiki ) then the 1961 6 input ac30 / 6 pre loc ...


" My Meazzi Echomatic is solid state, a little later than Hank''s was, but it is mechanical and running a tape and sounds ''spot on' for all those early Shads hits"


All the years i was using a modified valve Tape Meazzi before all the others popped up you repeatedly dismissed it / them saying it wasnt what was used, now you have a transister tape machine and you say its spot on ?

so are you saying you stand corrected then ? lol,
Phil