That Other Sound

[RogerCook]

I think you can strive for and sometimes get close to "that sound(s)" if you have enough time and post recording gizmos etc, but playing live I think the best you can hope for is "ball park" as Dave says. Having much the correct echo and overall tone for starters but there are so many variables on a gig. Fun trying though

[Somerset]

I have been fortunate on several occasions to chat with Hank a talk about these things and I'm able to say that on those recordings, he told me he used to set up what he considered a good tone to suit the melody. On his concerts he sets up what he describes as 'a ball park sound' that fits all. Those were his words when the two of us were discussing his KCP amplifier that I also bought. He couldn't understand everyone trying to emulate his recorded sound as he said the studio added quite a bit in the recording and mix-down and admitted that he rarely bothered to even try because of the complications involved, repeating that he opted for his 'ball park sound'. That's it.

Thank you Dave. Very interesting insight but perhaps not a complete surprise to me because I could not imagine Hank adjusting his echo settings for each tune in a live setting.

So this morning I have taken a step that may seem drastic to some but I have removed my Blue Nebula from my signal chain (I only use it for the presets) and done a factory reset on the Volante (I have a record of all the preset settings I programmed in it!).

My intention is to create 2 basic settings on the Volante and I will use each one with or without feedback so 4 in total.

I am no expert on the use of echo and have no idea what the settings might be just by listening to a recording so it will be interesting to see if I can convince myself that I have a sound that the average non-guitar-playing listener might also find convincing. But as I play largely for my own entertainment I may never know how successful the experiment is.

Back to the original topic of this post, further tweaking of the tone controls is proving very interesting and I am getting plenty of nice tones particularly with the Burns using the push/pull pickup selector.

When adjusting tone I find that one of the greatest influences (and this could be a topic all of it’s own) is the humble pick: material, thickness, shape (of the picking part), how you hold it and how you strike the strings all have a greater role to play than should be the case for something so small!

[scouserjoe2]

Hi,

An interesting subject which I think has been discussed here many times before. I would concur with Dave that 'nailing' either 'sound' is often down to patience and experimentation; sometimes even the slightest change of setting on guitar and amp can make a real difference in tone.

I have been using a settled set-up for some time with which I am very happy. Having purchased and used a TVS3 for many years I have never looked further for an alternative as, frankly, I do not think there is anything better out there to replicate Hank's sound with just a 'flick of a switch'. However I have always been interested to hear just how good some of these other units are. The Strymon Volante does seem to get a lot of good reports, and I have noticed that Pete Korving has used a Dawner Prince Boonar Multi-Head drum echo on some of his recordings (although I think he uses an Echomatic as well).

Clearly the TVS3 is an expensive unit and outwith the budget of many; Paul has also decided to cease making these units. So for those seeking a unit with a more modest investment these alternatives would be of interest.

Dave, have you tried the Boonar, and how would you compare either of these alternative units with the sound and ease of use of the TVS3 ?

Best regards,

Ian

[RogerCook]

My set up for gigging is basically just the Blue Nebula for echoes plus a Stanley FX Abbey Road Reverb pedal. I set up the echo patches in setlist order so it's just one press on the "UP" button to go to the next tune. Reverb is on all the time to try and replicate what the engineers may have added post recording and is adjusted to suit the venue. I don't really change much during a performance except for volume level and pickup selection as we share lead and rhythm duties between two guitarists (I use a chorus pedal for the Bruce parts on Cava/Argentina).

[GoldenStreet]

Malcolm Addey, the engineer on all those sessions from the beginning, could no doubt reveal a few relevant facts concerning the part he played himself in producing the wonderful recordings we've enjoyed over the decades.
Bill

Probably.

If he could remember it.

To the best of my knowledge he is still about and turns 90 in September.

Bill

[dave robinson]

In a conversation with the late and sorely missed Roberto Pistolisi who became a friend of Malcolm Addey, he revealed that he told him that his 'ball park' time setting on the Abbey Road reverb was 72ms, ever since he used it on 'Move It', which I believe defined the early Shadows tone even if they didn't exist then. You do of course have to figure out the level, dwell & decay and Lo/Hi Cut on the reverb, but fiddling around I always get damn close myself. That Pre-Delay is a great help.

[Iain Purdon]

Malcolm Addey, the engineer on all those sessions from the beginning, could no doubt reveal a few relevant facts concerning the part he played himself in producing the wonderful recordings we've enjoyed over the decades.
Bill

Malcolm Addey has addressed this question in the past. He replied to the effect that he worked on hundreds of sessions with dozens of artistes and really cannot recall details like that.

There was a thread here a while back addressing the “other sound” as featured in The Rise and Fall of Flingel Bunt. Worth another read?
http://shadowmusic.bdme.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=16735

[Garystrat]

Hi Ian,

I started re-thinking all this about 8 years ago when I decided to get a Catlinbread Echorec, it was quite different from the plug and play patch solutions and didn’t have the notionally recording correct head timings, but I really didn’t find this to be an issue and the satisfaction level was there.

Whilst Ivan is primarily demo’ing a Vox AC15 C1 he is using a Catlinbread Echorec, which sounds ……. well I’ll let you judge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auF1tRazxu0

The Volante is an extremely versatile unit that can cover all sorts of magnetic echo types in a very authentic way, I find the modelling facilities provide features and functionality that gives the sense of using a real world magnetic unit without all the hassle and maintenance. Based on Dave’s reviews and sound files, I researched the unit in greater depth and found that this is a really well thought out design from the pre-amp being an analogue J-FET design to the introduction point of the powerful digital modelling, then you also have stereo input/output and MIDI connection.

Since purchasing my Volante a few months ago I have not looked in the rear view mirror at all, the initial move away move away from the plug and play patch type solutions to the Catlinbread Echorec was quite liberating and in the process I discovered that tone/character were the elusive factors that I had been seeking for long time, but the Volante very much takes this to the next level and is certainly not “a one trick pony”!

I now tend to take a less is more approach and now use this with Helix Native 3.6 (HN) for the amp emulation on a DAW based setup with SoundToys SuperPlate for the the Abbey Road reverb effect:

https://www.soundtoys.com/product/superplate/

If you are interested this video will give you a very good introduction as to the units potential:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2My3speigI8

Hope you will find this of help.

Regards

Gary

[abstamaria]

Hank is first and foremost a musician. “Shadows” is just a shirt he wore before, to paraphrase another rock star.

Being that, Hank never stayed in one style or genre, but evolved. His style and sound in the Burns era eventually became very different from Apache, for example. After the Shads broke up, there was Marvin Welch Farrar. Much later, gypsy jazz ala Django Reinhart. There would beno real point in Hank trying to replicate what he had done before.

Da Vinci felt no need to replicate the Mona Lisa and would be insulted if asked to

I think among us there is that distinction too. Some are musicians who want to continue to explore their craft. Others, ike me, are just chasing That Sound. Aspirations differ.

As Hank’s music changed, so did his audiences. That is why some know so few of the tracks in the 1965 album Sound of The Shadows. Some of us are fans of Hank as a “Shsdow” and not necessarily his other guises.

Andy

[roger bayliss]

The Burns era sound does rely on bass and treble and cut being mostly full on with some slight rolling back on treble/cut.

The nasal type sound is caused by the way the tone stack worked on vintage AC30s, in that a scooped mid occurs that as quite deep and narrow around 700hz. You can see this if you get a copy of the Duncan Amps tool software. It shows how tone controls affect frequencies as you change them. Some Fender amps also have a similar effect.

Modern Vox amps with Top Boost have a newer tone circuit that is slightly different to the Vintage one, in that the bass pot is connected differently, causing the mids to differ. Thus, it is difficult to imitate the Burns sound in modern Vox amps, with a few exceptions.

I have a Vox AC15 HW (X) and it does the original tone and many amp sims often match it, eg UA Ruby etc.

I did a reasonable matching of the sound on a Boss Katana by using a parametric eq to scoop the mids and have done several tunes from that era to my satisfaction for live playing.