Flatwounds....

[abstamaria]

Very valuable information, Ray.

Andy

[JimN]

Many thanks to Ray for publishing those informative price lists. I have a Vox price list from 1965 and a Burns list from 1967, but not much in the way of pictorial illustration (though there is some).

There certainly seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the availability of roundwound strings at the dawn of the beat era, and about whether Hank ever used flatwound strings (see below). Another confused item - not just here, but all over the internet (again, see below) - is the nature of Gibson Sonomatic strings. I've said it before, but feel that it's worth saying it again: there was no such thing as a flatwound Sonomatic string. Sonomatic = roundwound (always).

The early sixties Gibson range of electric guitar strings consisted of three "models": Sonomatic (roundwound and 13-56 [definitely not starting with a 12*]), Hi-Fi Flatwound (same gauges) and Polished Compound Bronze (same gauges and a cross between round and flat in terms of feel). The PCB strings were intended for acoustic or electric guitar, but they were expensive in the UK and I only ever met one guitarist who used them (on a Harmony H77).

[*The current L5 Gibson strings are impostors - only one gauge of the set is the same as the original Sonomatic E340s]

Did Hank use flats on the Strat or other quality electrics? If he says not, I'm inclined to agree. There is no real sonic evidence of them once the hits start flowing, and plenty the other way round. But on the Antoria guitar there is clear evidence of the use of flatwound strings in the first half of 1959. Roberto Pistolesi obtained large high-res copies of well-known pics of The Drifters, with unmistakeable images of the sheen of tapewound strings on the Antoria and even a knot in a string (above the nut) on Jet's Besson bass - clearly indicating that money was still an object.

Were roundwound strings available in the fifties/early sixties in the UK? Definitely. Every brand of the time offered roundwound - some offered only roundwound in the UK (eg, Black Diamond). Roundwound strings were offered by Hofner (likely made by Pyramid), Cathedral and Monopole (the ancestors of Picato), James Howe (at first via the Vox and Burns brands, then Rotop, finally Rotosound).

Flatwound strings were always a more expensive option - but an option, and certainly not "the only thing you could get".

Try a few URLs for an interesting range of historical slants (but beware of tripe such as "flatwound Sonomatics"):

http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/pure-nickel-strings/8326

http://www.rickresource.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12696

http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/gear/guitar/strings.html

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/15469-early-strings/

http://magazine.dv247.com/2011/02/16/electric-guitar-strings/

And what about these (from the mid-sixties, complete with gauges)?

[cockroach]

It's not a question of 'the only thing you could get'...there's no argument that both roundwound and flatwound types were available back then.

It's just that a lot of manufacturers seem to have fitted flatwounds to their electric instruments as original equipment back around then.

(I didn't think the heavy gauge flats OE strings on my Hofner Club 40 - (bought new in February 1965) were much good soundwise or playing- wise for the music I was playing in 1965 (i.e. early Stones, Chuck Berry etc) So I changed to a set of understrung singles (1,1,2,3,4 & 5 roundwound) just before I joined my first group in about August 65...

As I've come to play more styles over the years, at this stage, I'm going to try the flats because the sound etc may better suit the material my band plays (50's/early '60's rock, '50's/early '60's rockabilly /country, late '50's/early '60's instrumentals) I've been using heavier gauge roundwounds (with a wound third mostly) for a few years now- so I just want to try the flats to see if they suit better.

I must say, I didn't start this thread to cause arguments. It was just to ask if anyone else used flats at present, and what they thought of them..

[ecca]

I couldn't care less what clever things are said now, 50 years on.
Tapewound strings were all I could get... according to my memory.

[Bluesnote]

I was the same in the early sixties, I lived on an island on the Clyde Estuary and there was only one shop that sold strings and that was Cathedral flatwounds or tapewounds, or cheap classical strings. It was better a few years later where I could get umteen choices of strings with a trip to Glasgow. No sitting on my lazy ass in these days and ordering them by simply tapping on a keyboard and ordering them online A ferry and train trip was required to get what I wanted.
What I remember about the tapewounds was that you always knew when they needed changing by the fact that the tape winding started to disintigrate under your fingers as you were playing at a gig or whatever I have no idea what gauge these strings would have been, I do remember them being pretty heavy under the fingers.
After that I was on Gibson 9 gauge for most of my playing life til a few years ago when I went to a heavier gauge.
Come to think of it, I myself went to a heavier gauge too
Hugh.

[roger bayliss]

I found this article of interest in this topic

http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/pur ... rings/8326


Sonomatics here

http://www.guitar-museum.com/guitar-218 ... STRINGS-BX

Browsing the web it seems many players including Beatles , Clapton , Gilmore, Townshend were using the Gibson Sonomatics 340 and even found a gear list for Townshend for late 60s/early 70s by a guitar tech listing them. It was typical for them to use a plain string on G string and Gilmore had a light top heavy bottom arrangement. The above article suggests the American strings (Gibson.Fender) appeared mid 60's and most rock players were using them by then. So it makes me wonder when exactly did the Shadows come by the Gibson Sonomatics ?

This article on John Lennons 325 at the point of fitting a Bigsby trem in 1961 mentions he had sonomatics fitted so that puts availability back to at least 1961.

http://www.rickresource.com/rrp/babysinblack.html

Here is a pull about American style lighter stringing and also check the scans of string packets from Pete Bests Drum kit on here
http://www.rickresource.com/forum/viewt ... 6&start=15

In the book, 17 Watts by Mo Foster, Albert Lee explains: "About a year before(Cochran and Eddy toured England) word had got around the way US players were stringing their axes, Duane Eddy and Eddie Cochran had told of how players would buy a regular set of strings and an extra first or light banjo string, move them over one and throw away the bottom string. This opened up a whole new world to us". Eddie Cochran was due to appear on a major show at Liverpool Stadium on May 3, 1960 with Gene Vincent, but was killed in a car accident on April 17, 1960 in England. So as early as possibly '59 some British guitar players were aware of light gauge strings. I think The Beatles would have been 'in the know' when it came to light gauge strings(and round wound strings) as early as '60-61. But being working musicians they probably didn't have the cash or opportunity to use them too often until they became huge. I guess it's anybodies guess as to when, where or what guitars they were using round-wounds on!

[abstamaria]

Indeed.  The countries and years appear critical.  It seems from the information and links (fascinating reading) contributed so far that the situation in the U.S. was quite different from the UK, and that referring to the "60s" is not useful, as the tipping point into roundwounds occurred on or before the mid-1960s.

In the world of that second-best-known UK band The Beatles, the consensus seems to be they used flatwounds in the early albums, some placing the transition to roundwounds to as late as the White Album. The article on Townshend's gear suggests he was on flatwounds until 1967, roundwounds becoming "standard issue" on Fenders from 1966.

For us Shadows fans, we seem agreed that Hank used flatwounds in the pre-Stratocaster days. Now the first question we need to answer is: when the Shadows first opened that tweed case in 1959 and marveled at the very first Stratocaster in England, what strings were on it?  When Hank first tried the guitar and assumed it must be that diet of steak and milk that Americans have that allowed them to bend those strings, what strings were they? Flatwounds or roundwounds?

Andy

         

[roger bayliss]

Andy there are articles I have read regarding Lennons 325 getting the Bigsby in 1961 and the Sonomatics that involve guitarists from that era who recall them being available in some shops and being around 3 times the price of the regular british brands of the day meaning they would be difficult to get hold of and pricey back in very early 60's. Some pictures of Lennons 325 in Hamburg show it restrung with Flatwound strings according to people who have zoomed into photos. They were known to be using Pyramid, Hofner and Cathederal brands at least . Macca apparently used flats on his bass and the suggestion is that Harrison would have had Flats on the Gretsch to get his much sought Country sound like Chet Atkins they suggest.

I think if people did buy Sonomatics at 3 times the price they would have been tempted to leave them on at that price. But it was clear the early British rockers were chasing the American Rock n Roll sounds and knew about some of the stringing ideas by the late 50's according to Albert Lee in Mo Fosters book. With regard to Lennon and the Sonomatic stringing in 61 they refer to using a plain g string too but Harrison at least is quoted as saying they used heavy strings difficult to bend so my guess no banjo string top at this point. Another forum on Beatles suggests the first two albums were made using Flatwound strings at least.

So whilst the Shadows via Bruce Welsh are stated to have used Gibson Sonomatic on all their guitars we still do not know at what point in time that came about. The string noise on some of the ealy recording hower do suggest a likelehood that they were Rounds !

So did the American strings come along with the new Imported American Strats after the Shadows craze started to hit and were available sometime after Apache and the first few hits ? When did the first real batch of Strat imports come in ?

[RayL]

So whilst the Shadows via Bruce Welsh are stated to have used Gibson Sonomatic on all their guitars we still do not know at what point in time that came about.

Cliff and The Shadows toured North America in early 1960 (with Laurie Jay replacing an unwell Tony Meehan). If Bruce had enough time to be thrown out of a Minneapolis shop for being under age when trying to buy a magazine with the headline 'Did the Devil send Elvis Presley?' , then he and Hank and Jet probably had time to visit music shops in Montreal, Philadelphia, Buffalo, New York, Oklahoma City, San Antonio, Detroit, Lubbock . . . . . .

There were tight restrictions at that time about the amount of money that you could take out of the UK, and they were just 'hired hands' , paid a wage by Cliff's management, so what do you buy when you haven't got a lot of money and you go into a music shop? . . . . . . . . . . guitar strings.

Ray

[abstamaria]

QUESTION #1: What strings did 34346 come with?

To answer my own question (and reiterate Patrice’s) and based on the information contributed above, the answer with almost 100% certainty must be “flatwounds.”

To the corollary question “what were the extra Fender strings sets that Cliff ordered and came with the guitar?” the conclusion must also be “flatwounds.”

Andy