The Art of Drumming

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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby drakula63 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:15 am

Just had an amusing thought...

One of the most famous and instantly recognisable drum intros to a hit single was actually played by none other than Cliff Richard!

I bet that won't get a mention on the programme! :D
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby Tigerdaisy » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:09 pm

Mis post
Last edited by Tigerdaisy on Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby drakula63 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:29 pm

Tigerdaisy wrote:I think drum solos probably belong in jazz and don't really fit into popular music- mostly they are too long and not really thought out that well. As the Youtube video said the most important thing is the song not some pathetic attempt at virtuosity from a drummer or guitarist/bass player. Very few guitar solos have been successful as being an important part of a song- of course there are some very notable guitar solos that fit well as part of a song, mostly from American artists. Ring Starr was a 'good' drummer in that his style fitted perfectly with what the Beatles were doing, no more or no less.


Whilst I don't wish to move this discussion away from drummers and onto guitarists, I was just curious about the comment you made above where you state "Very few guitar solos have been successful as being an important part of a song- of course there are some very notable guitar solos that fit well as part of a song, mostly from American artists." Are you saying that it is mostly American guitarists who have been successful in this respect, or are you meaning American singers - and therefore, I suppose by default, mostly American guitarists?

As I see it, in the post-Rock n Roll era, most of the guitarists who have contributed memorable and perfectly suited guitar parts to songs have been BRITISH. Of these, I'd name the following off the top of my head as being the most significant and widely celebrated: Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, Tony Iommi, Jimmy Page, Peter Green, Dave Gilmour, Pete Townshend, Gary Moore, Ritchie Blackmore, Martin Barre and Mark Knopfler. I must have missed some out, but those are the ones that come most easily to mind. Ironically, all of them have cited The Shadows or Hank Marvin in particular, as an influence. All of these have been and remain acknowledged masters of their craft and led the field by a long way during the 1960s and '70s.

During the 1980s, it seemed that the art of the guitarist was becoming more and more a case of who could play the fastest. There are literally too many of these to name and most of them contributed little if anything to the art. Having said that, the ones that stand out as being particularly revolutionary and admired include: John Sykes (British), Edward Van Halen (Dutch), Yngwie Malmsteen (Swedish) and, admittedly, Steve Vai and Joe Satriani (American). Perhaps the most famous guitar solo/guitar melody from this era came from Guns N' Roses 'Sweet Child o' Mine' and was written and played by Saul Hudson (better known as 'Slash'), who also happens to be British.

If I have misunderstood your post, then my apologies. If, on the other hand, I have not, then I would be very interesting in seeing your list of post-R'N'R era American guitarists who can be ranked alongside (or above) the British ones I have listed.
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby johnc » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:38 pm

drakula63 wrote:
Tigerdaisy wrote:I think drum solos probably belong in jazz and don't really fit into popular music- mostly they are too long and not really thought out that well. As the Youtube video said the most important thing is the song not some pathetic attempt at virtuosity from a drummer or guitarist/bass player. Very few guitar solos have been successful as being an important part of a song- of course there are some very notable guitar solos that fit well as part of a song, mostly from American artists. Ring Starr was a 'good' drummer in that his style fitted perfectly with what the Beatles were doing, no more or no less.


Whilst I don't wish to move this discussion away from drummers and onto guitarists, I was just curious about the comment you made above where you state "Very few guitar solos have been successful as being an important part of a song- of course there are some very notable guitar solos that fit well as part of a song, mostly from American artists." Are you saying that it is mostly American guitarists who have been successful in this respect, or are you meaning American singers - and therefore, I suppose by default, mostly American guitarists?

As I see it, in the post-Rock n Roll era, most of the guitarists who have contributed memorable and perfectly suited guitar parts to songs have been BRITISH. Of these, I'd name the following off the top of my head as being the most significant and widely celebrated: Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, Tony Iommi, Jimmy Page, Peter Green, Dave Gilmour, Pete Townshend, Gary Moore, Ritchie Blackmore, Martin Barre and Mark Knopfler. I must have missed some out, but those are the ones that come most easily to mind. Ironically, all of them have cited The Shadows or Hank Marvin in particular, as an influence. All of these have been and remain acknowledged masters of their craft and led the field by a long way during the 1960s and '70s.

During the 1980s, it seemed that the art of the guitarist was becoming more and more a case of who could play the fastest. There are literally too many of these to name and most of them contributed little if anything to the art. Having said that, the ones that stand out as being particularly revolutionary and admired include: John Sykes (British), Edward Van Halen (Dutch), Yngwie Malmsteen (Swedish) and, admittedly, Steve Vai and Joe Satriani (American). Perhaps the most famous guitar solo/guitar melody from this era came from Guns N' Roses 'Sweet Child o' Mine' and was written and played by Saul Hudson (better known as 'Slash'), who also happens to be British.

If I have misunderstood your post, then my apologies. If, on the other hand, I have not, then I would be very interesting in seeing your list of post-R'N'R era American guitarists who can be ranked alongside (or above) the British ones I have listed.


The American players in the era you have specified (post rock'n'roll) who have produced superb memorable and influential playing and who come to mind for me are mainly session players who played on many US hits...James Burton, Glen Campbell, Louie Shelton and many others...(btw, both Steve Vai and Joe Satriani- and Frank Zappa for that matter...are technically Italian- American!)
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby drakula63 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:48 pm

I should probably add Brian May to my list of post rock n' roll era British guitarists who made a huge contribution in terms of lead playing. There can't be many guitarists who have managed to crossover so successfully from glam/heavy rock to pop/chart music and make such an impact in both. Again, another guitarist who cites Hank as an influence and another whose melodic solos and melodies added much to the music of Queen. Other non-American guitarists that I omitted from my original list should also include Hull-born Mick Ronson, for his incredible work with David Bowie, David Howell Evans (AKA 'The Edge') English/Welsh guitarist with U2 and, dare I say it, the one and only 'Keef' for becoming the archetypal laid back, British blues/rock guitar hero, whose 1960s/70s image and sound can still be seen and heard in many bands today.

I should maybe add also that in terms of American guitarists, the most obvious in this area would, of course, be Hendrix and I realise that these days Joe Bonamassa is very highly rated. I would still maintain, however, that the majority of players who have made a real difference between, say 1960 and 1980, are British.
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby Tigerdaisy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:48 pm

drakula63 wrote:I should probably add Brian May to my list of post rock n' roll era British guitarists who made a huge contribution in terms of lead playing. There can't be many guitarists who have managed to crossover so successfully from glam/heavy rock to pop/chart music and make such an impact in both. Again, another guitarist who cites Hank as an influence and another whose melodic solos and melodies added much to the music of Queen. Other non-American guitarists that I omitted from my original list should also include Hull-born Mick Ronson, for his incredible work with David Bowie, David Howell Evans (AKA 'The Edge') English/Welsh guitarist with U2 and, dare I say it, the one and only 'Keef' for becoming the archetypal laid back, British blues/rock guitar hero, whose 1960s/70s image and sound can still be seen and heard in many bands today.

I should maybe add also that in terms of American guitarists, the most obvious in this area would, of course, be Hendrix and I realise that these days Joe Bonamassa is very highly rated. I would still maintain, however, that the majority of players who have made a real difference between, say 1960 and 1980, are British.


Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, Tony Iommi, Jimmy Page, Peter Green, Dave Gilmour, Pete Townshend, Gary Moore, Ritchie Blackmore, Martin Barre and Mark Knopfler- I think we are getting mixed up with guitar virtuosos and men that can produce a tasteful and meaningful solo. Out of your list I'd include Mark Knopfler, occasionally Jeff Beck, and rarely Jimmy Page. I'd also add George Harrison- the rest of the list in my view just play 'blues' cliches, occasionally extremely frantically, some players better than others, including Clapton, who is a much much better singer than he is a guitarist. Lol, Bonamassa I'd put into the same class as Moore, both frantic cliche players with no construction and no creativity- they should listen to Knopfler. Don't get me started on Hendrix, who I've never liked or could not see why people rated him so highly- maybe it was because he set light to his guitars, or more likely people just wanted to pretend that they were 'with it'. Obviously there are many more really creative guitarists than listed here.
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby drakula63 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:45 pm

Tigerdaisy wrote:
drakula63 wrote:I should probably add Brian May to my list of post rock n' roll era British guitarists who made a huge contribution in terms of lead playing. There can't be many guitarists who have managed to crossover so successfully from glam/heavy rock to pop/chart music and make such an impact in both. Again, another guitarist who cites Hank as an influence and another whose melodic solos and melodies added much to the music of Queen. Other non-American guitarists that I omitted from my original list should also include Hull-born Mick Ronson, for his incredible work with David Bowie, David Howell Evans (AKA 'The Edge') English/Welsh guitarist with U2 and, dare I say it, the one and only 'Keef' for becoming the archetypal laid back, British blues/rock guitar hero, whose 1960s/70s image and sound can still be seen and heard in many bands today.

I should maybe add also that in terms of American guitarists, the most obvious in this area would, of course, be Hendrix and I realise that these days Joe Bonamassa is very highly rated. I would still maintain, however, that the majority of players who have made a real difference between, say 1960 and 1980, are British.


Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, Tony Iommi, Jimmy Page, Peter Green, Dave Gilmour, Pete Townshend, Gary Moore, Ritchie Blackmore, Martin Barre and Mark Knopfler- I think we are getting mixed up with guitar virtuosos and men that can produce a tasteful and meaningful solo. Out of your list I'd include Mark Knopfler, occasionally Jeff Beck, and rarely Jimmy Page. I'd also add George Harrison- the rest of the list in my view just play 'blues' cliches, occasionally extremely frantically, some players better than others, including Clapton, who is a much much better singer than he is a guitarist. Lol, Bonamassa I'd put into the same class as Moore, both frantic cliche players with no construction and no creativity- they should listen to Knopfler. Don't get me started on Hendrix, who I've never liked or could not see why people rated him so highly- maybe it was because he set light to his guitars, or more likely people just wanted to pretend that they were 'with it'. Obviously there are many more really creative guitarists than listed here.


Certainly a unique way of summarising some of the most renowned and talented guitarists that have graced the stages and record players of the world! Mind you, I agree with you about Hendrix, although that's not to deny that he had a unique style and proved to be very influential.

To my list of marvellous British guitarists/soloists I would have to add the following (I keep remembering more names every time I go for a lie down!);

Peter Frampton (I'm sure his 'Comes Alive' album must have sold more copies in the US than any live album before or since, and I don't think anyone could honestly deny that his use of the voicebox on the solo of 'Show Me The Way' was a perfect fit); Steve Howe; Robert Fripp; Allan Holdsworth; John Myall; Gordon Giltrap and Steve Hillage.

To this list I would also have to add the Dutch guitarist from Focus, Jan Akkerman.

Again, in terms of a) influence and b) well constructed solos, I'd say that the above led the field during the post rock n' roll years. I would be interested in your list of American guitarists from this same period. Offhand, Steve Lukather and maybe Joe Perry stand out. There must be others of note, but surely not enough to justify your 'most'.
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby johnc » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:12 am

Hey , drummers!

Notice how we guitarists stole this thread?

:lol: :lol: ;) :roll:
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby Clarry » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:15 am

I think the Ringo inclusion is probably because he was the first pop drummer allowed to have a public personality and not just be a backing musician. I may be wrong.

I'm always impressed by Mel Taylor of The Ventures, especially on the album Ventures in Space when the drums are really bought to the fore alongside the lead guitar.
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby Tigerdaisy » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:26 am

Certainly a unique way of summarising some of the most renowned and talented guitarists that have graced the stages and record players of the world! Mind you, I agree with you about Hendrix, although that's not to deny that he had a unique style and proved to be very influential.

To my list of marvellous British guitarists/soloists I would have to add the following (I keep remembering more names every time I go for a lie down!);

Peter Frampton (I'm sure his 'Comes Alive' album must have sold more copies in the US than any live album before or since, and I don't think anyone could honestly deny that his use of the voicebox on the solo of 'Show Me The Way' was a perfect fit); Steve Howe; Robert Fripp; Allan Holdsworth; John Myall; Gordon Giltrap and Steve Hillage.

To this list I would also have to add the Dutch guitarist from Focus, Jan Akkerman.

Again, in terms of a) influence and b) well constructed solos, I'd say that the above led the field during the post rock n' roll years. I would be interested in your list of American guitarists from this same period. Offhand, Steve Lukather and maybe Joe Perry stand out. There must be others of note, but surely not enough to justify your 'most'.


Well, I'm thinking about bands like Steely Dan, Isley Brothers, Marvin Gaye (not a band I know), Isaac Hayes, Glen Campbell, Santana (occasionally), Al Di Meola, Chicago (25 or 6to4). I'm sure there are very many more but my memory fails me. A lot of the guitarists you name are very competent but not really too interesting to listen to- too many guitarists think that just reeling out a load of blues cliches and running up and down pentatonic scales make a solo, but they all sound the same- we all know the guilty culprits who play at the speed of light on both sides of the Atlantic.
Anyway, it's just my opinion! ;-) One of the best and most effective guitar solos was the one in 'Living Doll'.
Last edited by Tigerdaisy on Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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