The Art of Drumming

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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby Iain Purdon » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:28 pm

drakula63 wrote:Thanks for the youtube link, but I won't bother watching it as he's probably just going to try to counter the comments and opinions of the many.

Oooh! How many youtube links have you posted in this thread? :D Anyway, if you had watched it, you'd have seen how he actually demonstrates the difference between what Ringo did and what another drummer might do.

Dave Robinson refers to his conversation with BB about it. Here's another quote on the subject:
"Ringo did the job absolutely correctly. ... They were just great songs, and he played them in the only way they could be played. What he did was absolutely right." -- Brian Bennett in Speaking Words of Wisdom by Spencer Leigh (1991)

Meanwhile, back in those heady 60s days, BEAT INSTRUMENTAL brought the two men together. Somewhere I have a scan of the actual page but here is a transcript.
What would be the result if some of our top groups had a grand re-shuffle? Just imagine George Harrison, with only slightly longer hair, in the Stones' line-up, or Paul McCartney playing bass for the Animals! Impossible? Maybe. But let's listen to a discussion between Ringo Starr and Brian Bennett and see how they feel about a swap —

Brian: (laughing) "It would all depend on whether the money was right, wouldn't it? But I think I would fit in O.K. with the Beatles. Of course, it would mean a big change in style for me, and I don't think my tonsils would produce half as good a result as yours, Ringo"!
Ringo: "Thanks a lot, Brian. I'll send the cheque round tomorrow! But, you've no need to worry, I couldn't sing 'The Rise and Fall of Flingel Bunt' to save my life".
Brian: "Yes, it is a bit tricky. It's a funny thing, but I started out studying the violin. I scratched away for two years and, as if that wasn't enough, my Mum and Dad also wanted me to learn the piano, but I didn't fancy either of them and my parents didn't bother to push me hard. In a way, I wish they had, because I sincerely believe that you're better off later on if your parents discipline you when you're young."
Ringo: "Thank you, Professor Bennett, for that lecture on Child Welfare! No, I am only kidding! I think you're quite right. Just think, I might now be a world famous classical musician if my parents had forced me to play the violin. When did you first start hitting things, Brian?"
Brian: "I must have been about two when I had my first drum kit. It was made up of pots and pans in the kitchen sink, or so I am told. My parents got me my first drum kit when I was nine".
Ringo: "I was just double that age when I first took up drumming. My first kit cost £10 and was made up of bits and pieces from all sorts of makes. How much did yours cost?"
Brian: "Three pounds ten. It was just a toy set with starched canvas skins and, to be quite honest, I never bothered with it until five years afterwards. I see we're both using Ludwig kits at the moment—what do you think of them?"
Ringo: "Well, I've had three sets altogether, not counting my first one—you couldn't put a name to that because it was a mixture of so many bits and pieces—next came an Ajax, which had some pretty hard bashing in our early days; then I changed to a Premier kit, which I played up till 1963. But these Ludwigs are the very best—don't you agree?"
Brian: "Yes, definitely. They really are superb. Everyone seems to begin with an odd mixture when they start playing. My first collection consisted of a 'Doc' Hunt bass drum, an Olympic snare drum and a Zin cymbal. Then when a bit of money started coming in, I got a Black Pearl Premier kit. A bit later I changed to a black Trixon, which I used for five years and then a black Ludwig".
Ringo: "What's all the black for? Do you play at funerals or something?"
Brian: "No! It is just my favourite colour. Hank and Bruce bought me my present Ludwig kit at a place called Manny's in New York. But, one thing I did want to ask you, what do you think of tutors? I first learned to play by listening to other drummers, then I bought a Buddy Rich tutor which helped me a great deal. I used to idolise Buddy and copied his style until I developed one of my own. I don't think you ever do stop learning and I often work on my timing now by using a book called, "Hindermith's Elementary Training". I think it should be compulsory reading for every musician because it really does give you a fantastic sense of timing".
Ringo: "I can see you like tutors—can't say I've ever really found much use for them. I just joined a group and learned as I went along. I don't believe in shutting yourself up in a room all on your own and practising for hours, but everyone to his own method. One thing I'm quite certain about, I don't believe that 'rock' drummers should ever play modern jazz".
Brian: "Hey, wait a minute! I certainly don't agree with that! Most people would class me as a 'rock' drummer, but I still love to play modern jazz. It's so relaxing. I don't see why, if you are really dedicated to drumming, you shouldn't play all sorts of music."
Ringo: "O.K., Brian, let's just agree to disagree with that one! Tell me, how many groups did you play for before you joined the Shadows? It must have been quite a few".
Brian: "You're right there. I started, believe it or not, with the Wood Green Amateur Symphony Orchestra—very serious, that! Then jumped in the deep rock and roll end with Charlie (Wee Willie) Harris, then after that came Vince Eager, Vince Taylor, Tony Sheridan, Marty Wilde, and just about all the old Larry Parnes' stable. Eddie Cochran, Tommy Steele, The Krewcats, Joe Brown and then, finally, the Shadows. What about you?"
Ringo: "Oh, I just knocked around with a few Liverpool groups—none of the names would mean all that much—until I joined Rory Storm and the Hurricanes. That was the group I left when I joined the Beatles. Everyone was always changing groups in Liverpool. Some people seemed to do it every month. By the way, why is it that so few of us drummers seem to get in the songwriting stakes? No, wait a minute! You've written a few, haven't you?"
Brian: "Yes, I shared the writing credits for "Summer Holiday" and "Wonderful Life" with Bruce Welch. I think our main trouble is that you can't write songs on drums. I took up the piano again recently and that helped me to get down to those two numbers".
Ringo: "Who's your favourite drummer? Personally, I nominate Tony Newman of Sounds Incorporated. He's got a great style".
Brian: "Ooh! Let me have a think. I reckon that Kenny Clare comes first on my list. But, there are a lot of others who are pretty good; for example, Andy White and that other drummer . . . what's his name? . . . plays with the Insects. Ringo something or other".
Ringo: "Never heard of him!"

All good fun :) I'm no drummer, and you are, but all I would suggest is that The Art of Drumming must surely include the ability to play the right thing for the piece?
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby drakula63 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:01 pm

Interesting stuff I'll agree.

However, still not convinced re. Ringo. The most telling exchange from this dual interview, for me, was this one...

Ringo: "I can see you like tutors—can't say I've ever really found much use for them. I just joined a group and learned as I went along. I don't believe in shutting yourself up in a room all on your own and practising for hours, but everyone to his own method. One thing I'm quite certain about, I don't believe that 'rock' drummers should ever play modern jazz".

Brian: "Hey, wait a minute! I certainly don't agree with that! Most people would class me as a 'rock' drummer, but I still love to play modern jazz. It's so relaxing. I don't see why, if you are really dedicated to drumming, you shouldn't play all sorts of music."


Brian, like many others, DID shut himself up in a room (so to speak) and practice - and it shows. Ringo didn't - and it shows. Many of those hard hitting drummers had a real swing and jazzy feel to their playing (even Bill Ward and Ian Paice) and I'd bet that they had much the same influences and philosophies re. drumming as Brian. I saw a really funny interview with 'Macca' once (master of media manipulation) in which Jonathan Ross asked him why Linda only played the synth using one finger. Macca replied, in all seriousness, that she only used one finger because it was a 'monophonic synthesiser', so only one note could be played at a time! True. But don't you see a bit of retro-fitting going on here, or putting the cart before the horse. If Linda had been a better player, she'd have used a polyphonic synth and used eight fingers. Now this isn't intended to be a Linda bashing session, but I think we can all see from that how facts can be twisted to suit the ends of the individual. Of course Ringo didn't believe that rock drummers should play modern jazz... because HE couldn't! Simples, as they say!

Yes, Ringo was perfect for the Beatles. No arguments from me there. Could he have been perfect for the Shadows? Not in a million years.

And to close, I think Brian was being very modest and charitable (as seems to be his nature). He could play anything and everything that Ringo could play with one arm tied behind his back... and the other arm broken. Listen to the way Brian plays on that live version of The warlord...admittedly with both arms! That could have fallen apart horribly if he'd slipped. So it's Brian Bennett 1 - Ringo Starr 0 from me, but we can all agree to disagree.
Last edited by drakula63 on Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby johnc » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:30 pm

drakula63 wrote:Interesting stuff I'll agree.

However, still not convinced re. Ringo. The most telling exchange from this dual interview, for me, was this one...

Ringo: "I can see you like tutors—can't say I've ever really found much use for them. I just joined a group and learned as I went along. I don't believe in shutting yourself up in a room all on your own and practising for hours, but everyone to his own method. One thing I'm quite certain about, I don't believe that 'rock' drummers should ever play modern jazz".

Brian: "Hey, wait a minute! I certainly don't agree with that! Most people would class me as a 'rock' drummer, but I still love to play modern jazz. It's so relaxing. I don't see why, if you are really dedicated to drumming, you shouldn't play all sorts of music."


Brian, like many others, DID shut himself up in a room (so to speak) and practice - and it shows. Ringo didn't - and it shows. Many of those hard hitting drummers had a real swing and jazzy feel to their playing (even Bill Ward and Ian Paice) and I'd bet that they had much the same influences and philosophies re. drumming as Brian. I saw a really funny interview with 'Macca' once (master of media manipulation) in which Jonathan Ross asked him why Linda only played the synth using one finger. Macca replied, in all seriousness, that she only used one finger because it was a 'monophonic synthesiser', so only one note could be played at a time! True. But don't you see a bit of retro-fitting going on here, or putting the cart before the horse. If Linda had been a better player, she'd have used a polyphonic synth and used eight fingers. Now this isn't intended to be a Linda basing session, but I think we can all see from that how facts can be twisted to suit the ends of the individual. Of course Ringo didn't believe that rock drummers should play modern jazz... because HE couldn't! Simples, as they say!

Yes, Ringo was perfect for the Beatles. No arguments from me there. Could he have been perfect for the Shadows? Not in a million years.

And to close, I think Brian was being very modest and charitable (as seems to be his nature). He could play anything and everything that Ringo could play with one arm tied behind his back... and the other arm broken. Listen to the way Brian plays on that live version of The warlord...admittedly with both arms! That could have fallen apart horribly if he'd slipped. So it's Brian Bennett 1 - Ringo Starr 0 from me, but we can all agree to disagree.


The style and ability required to play in a group playing mainly instrumental music is somewhat different from that required for backing primarily vocal music.

Sometimes, some players in either genre are better or worse than they should be or need to be, but it's comparing apples with oranges to me..and in that case, comparisons can be odious as the saying goes..

I admire virtuosity in any musician regardless of style, but virtuosity is not always a pre-requisite in producing great music.
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby Alan Taylor » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:38 pm

"virtuosity is not always a pre-requisite in producing great music"

Absolutely John!
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby drakula63 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:01 pm

Alan Taylor wrote:"virtuosity is not always a pre-requisite in producing great music"

Absolutely John!


Not always... but more often than not!!! ;)

Last night's episode of The Art of Drumming was interesting. No mention of Ringo, sadly. But no mention of BB or TM either. Actually, I am of the view that this programme is aimed more at the American than UK market, as it was stated that the 'drum solo' didn't become a fixture in a rock/pop gig until about 1967. This totally ignores the fact that Brian was playing Little B live (and on record) in '62. The example they gave was 'Moby Dick' by John Bonham. Now if you listen to this solo, you can definitely hear Brian Bennett's influence - in my opinion - as he mixes jazz with pop/rock n roll styles. I have heard it said that Bonham actually turned up at the London Palladium in 1978, at the Cliff and the Shads reunions, and asked Brian if he could get him in, citing him as the reason he had started to play the drums in the first place!

The point I am making is that Brian Bennett in particular could probably just as easily be credited for introducing the drum solo into the pop/rock vocabulary, as could John Bonham. The difference is, Bonham is a legend in America, where as Brian isn't. This is a shame, as credit where credit is due and thus far Brian hasn't been given his due. Anyone else agree or maybe disagree?

There were certainly some brilliant drummers in last night's show and they displayed their differing skills and approaches perfectly. One or two inclusions had me raising an eyebrow, but generally I have no criticism of the choices. It would be nice if at least one of them mentions Tony Meehan or Brian Bennett next week (they are talking about their favourite drummers and influences), but I won't be surprised if they don't.
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby drakula63 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:09 pm

johnc wrote:
The style and ability required to play in a group playing mainly instrumental music is somewhat different from that required for backing primarily vocal music.

.


To some degree that is true. However, where an instrument takes the place of a human voice the approach from the drummer needn't be different at all. Personally I would say that the main difference lies not in whether it is vocal or instrumental music, but the style of the music/song being played. That's what I have always found anyway.
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby johnc » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:40 am

drakula63 wrote:
johnc wrote:
The style and ability required to play in a group playing mainly instrumental music is somewhat different from that required for backing primarily vocal music.

.


To some degree that is true. However, where an instrument takes the place of a human voice the approach from the drummer needn't be different at all. Personally I would say that the main difference lies not in whether it is vocal or instrumental music, but the style of the music/song being played. That's what I have always found anyway.


Fair enough!

However...the musicians need to make what they play suit the song or tune...it's not how much ability they have, it's how they use it to appropriately suit and enhance the music..

I'm a guitarist not a drummer, but I've found as I got older, some of the virtuoso playing I thought was the be-all and end-all back then when I was young is almost unlistenable now! Conversely, for example, some of the guitar licks played by Chet Atkins on the Everly Brothers recordings, were extremely simple...but they sounded just right in the context of the songs..
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby Iain Purdon » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:24 pm

drakula63 wrote:Brian Bennett in particular could probably just as easily be credited for introducing the drum solo into the pop/rock vocabulary, as could John Bonham.

Well, yes he could, as could Tony Meehan. But around the same time, and unlike them, Sandy Nelson was having chart single success with drum solo material: Let There Be Drums and Teen Beat. And there were The Surfaris with Wipe Out. If the art of drumming is about getting it right for the music, however, Clem Cattini has a greater claim than TM or BB, having played on 45 hit singles by different artistes. Because the job, as Buddy Rich put it, is to "sit back there and swing the band," and Clem swung 45 bands!

All the above names are "famous". Meanwhile, there are loads of excellent drummers you may not know because they are not "names". In the business, though, they are the top professionals because they can play any session or any gig. Andy White wasn't famous then, and isn't now. We only know of him thanks to George Martin booking him to play on the Love Me Do session because, having decided Pete Best wasn't a suitable drummer for recordings, he didn't know whether Ringo would be up to it and didn't want to take a chance. Andy's version is crisper. "It was just a gig" he said years later in the BBC Glasgow Club bar, adding "they were nice lads."

The session pros are the ones who really have the art of drumming (or playing whatever is their instrument) and that's why they get the work. To hear the UK's top session performers in action, you have only to listen to (not watch) Strictly Come Dancing on BBC1. Dave Arch has surrounded himself with the very best people and they can play absolutely anything. That's art. As with the rest of the band, and singers, the drums will always be spot on.
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby drakula63 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:01 pm

Iain Purdon wrote:
drakula63 wrote:Brian Bennett in particular could probably just as easily be credited for introducing the drum solo into the pop/rock vocabulary, as could John Bonham.

Well, yes he could, as could Tony Meehan. But around the same time, and unlike them, Sandy Nelson was having chart single success with drum solo material: Let There Be Drums and Teen Beat. And there were The Surfaris with Wipe Out. If the art of drumming is about getting it right for the music, however, Clem Cattini has a greater claim than TM or BB, having played on 45 hit singles by different artistes. Because the job, as Buddy Rich put it, is to "sit back there and swing the band," and Clem swung 45 bands!

All the above names are "famous". Meanwhile, there are loads of excellent drummers you may not know because they are not "names". In the business, though, they are the top professionals because they can play any session or any gig. Andy White wasn't famous then, and isn't now. We only know of him thanks to George Martin booking him to play on the Love Me Do session because, having decided Pete Best wasn't a suitable drummer for recordings, he didn't know whether Ringo would be up to it and didn't want to take a chance. Andy's version is crisper. "It was just a gig" he said years later in the BBC Glasgow Club bar, adding "they were nice lads."

The session pros are the ones who really have the art of drumming (or playing whatever is their instrument) and that's why they get the work. To hear the UK's top session performers in action, you have only to listen to (not watch) Strictly Come Dancing on BBC1. Dave Arch has surrounded himself with the very best people and they can play absolutely anything. That's art. As with the rest of the band, and singers, the drums will always be spot on.


Yeah. The point I was really making was to dispute the claim that seemed to be made in the programme that the drum solo as an integral part of the rock gig started with John Bonham circa 1967. That I think could be shown to be incorrect - and the example given, Moby Dick, certainly sounded like Little B in parts. A shame this connection as well as error couldn't have been highlighted/corrected!

Actually, I've remembered another claim made in the programme that I would also dispute. It was claimed that Ginger Baker, courtesy of Cream's 'Sunshine of Your Love', 1967, was the first person to really introduce African beats/tom toms into rock music. I would respectfully direct anyone who believes this to be the case to a certain little tune from 1961 called The Savage! But, again, one is very well known in the US, whereas the other is not. But a glaring omission is the result.

Apart from the likes of Tony and Brian, one of my all time favourite drummers is the guy who beat the skins in the Johnny Gregory Orchestra on the 1976 LP 'The Detectives'. I bought this album in the golden summer of '76 and have played it almost as many times as The Shadows 20 Golden Greats! His playing literally blew me away and was one of the things that made me start to really notice and get excited by the drums. I don't know for sure, but I believe it may have been Ronnie Verrell (indeed, I think we may have even discussed this years ago here). An incredible drummer and a session man par excellence! Listen to this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPYOoC0 ... Rw&index=2
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Re: The Art of Drumming

Postby George Geddes » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:18 pm

While not wishing to prolong the Ringo discussions unnecessarily, I recently read Jim Berkenstadt's book 'The Beatle who vanished'. It is a biography of Jimmie Nicol, who had to deputise for an ailing Ringo for part of a Beatles tour (much in the way Laurie Jay did for Tony Meehan). JN went on to play drums for the Spotnicks but then slid into obscurity.


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