Solid, beefy lows - but where is the pickup?

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Re: Solid, beefy lows - but where is the pickup?

Postby cockroach » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:54 pm

I think John Entwhistle influenced such a lot of bass players, as regards his sound...he once said he wanted to sound like Duane Eddy , only lower!

He also used very large and powerful amps which influenced many bass players...able to compete at last with the lead guitar and drums.. :roll: :D
Using a treble sound on bass was always pretty weak and ropey, until the big power amps became available. Playing the bass loud with lots of treble (like Jet did on his solo records) gave a different tone with flatwounds - the growl...whereas with roundwounds, it was a deep twang sound..take your pick! :)
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Re: Solid, beefy lows - but where is the pickup?

Postby Kawarthabass » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:00 pm

cockroach wrote:I think John Entwhistle influenced such a lot of bass players, as regards his sound...he once said he wanted to sound like Duane Eddy , only lower!

He also used very large and powerful amps which influenced many bass players...able to compete at last with the lead guitar and drums.. :roll: :D
Using a treble sound on bass was always pretty weak and ropey, until the big power amps became available. Playing the bass loud with lots of treble (like Jet did on his solo records) gave a different tone with flatwounds - the growl...whereas with roundwounds, it was a deep twang sound..take your pick! :)



cockroach: re Jet's playing and sound....

I could be wrong but it's my impression that much of Jet's playing and sound on the electric bass came from his guitar playing.
I know he played double bass before he bought the P bass but his work with the Shadows seemed to me as if he created a new style for himself rather than transferring over what he did on the upright. He was quite creative considering the electric bass was in its infancy back then.
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Re: Solid, beefy lows - but where is the pickup?

Postby cockroach » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:14 pm

Kawarthabass wrote:
cockroach wrote:I think John Entwhistle influenced such a lot of bass players, as regards his sound...he once said he wanted to sound like Duane Eddy , only lower!

He also used very large and powerful amps which influenced many bass players...able to compete at last with the lead guitar and drums.. :roll: :D
Using a treble sound on bass was always pretty weak and ropey, until the big power amps became available. Playing the bass loud with lots of treble (like Jet did on his solo records) gave a different tone with flatwounds - the growl...whereas with roundwounds, it was a deep twang sound..take your pick! :)



cockroach: re Jet's playing and sound....

I could be wrong but it's my impression that much of Jet's playing and sound on the electric bass came from his guitar playing.
I know he played double bass before he bought the P bass but his work with the Shadows seemed to me as if he created a new style for himself rather than transferring over what he did on the upright. He was quite creative considering the electric bass was in its infancy back then.


Do you mean his style came from playing bass guitar rather than upright acoustic bass? If so, it's quite possible, and many bass guitarist who previously played upright found they needed to play differently with different technique on a bass guitar.

I don't think Jet ever played normal 6 string guitar until the period in his solo career where he started to use a guitar either tuned down or concert pitch- Diamonds, Scarlett O'Hara, etc..whereas previously he played 6 string bass as a solo instrument..he said as much in an interview in Beat Instrumental in 1963.
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Re: Solid, beefy lows - but where is the pickup?

Postby MMStingray54 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:13 am

JimN wrote:On the couple of occasions where I have been able to observe Alan Jones' set-up (and setting-up) at close quarters, I remember that he uses a little amp-top "magic box" as part of his sound. I shan't say what it is, but it seems to do something similar to another little bass-player's magic box which I was recently shown.


Do you mean a pre-amp DI with active tone controls - as a floor box possibly made by an American firm starting with the letter S?

In terms of the location of pick ups, a pick up located near the end of the fingerboard will likely be very bassy - indeed on a Gibson EBO it's sometimes referred to as a mudbucker for obvious reasons. It does depend also on winding spec, electronics and all sorts as well.

Take a Fender Jazz - the bridge pick up was moved closer to the bridge marginally in the 70s - that's influences the tone from that pick up.

Much of the sound of a Precision comes from the position of the pick up and it's design (note a pre 57 with single coil sounds a little different).

Bass guitar relies more on low mid range than deep bass sound - that is where basses like the Precision and Stingray for instance are strong. Adding a treble shimmer (players may do this with a little amp drive or a drive pedal) adds bite to the sound - this is possible on active basses using the treble control - and it helps the sound to sit better in the mix and be heard.

In terms of obtaining different sounds from the same bass, plucking over the neck joint, near the bridge or anywhere else in between will have a major impact on your sound. And having whacking great 18" speakers in heavyweight cabinets will not necessarily help your sound to be heard - for that you need multiple smaller speakers to ensure the most important elements of the sound are heard (not sub bass rumble!!). It's totally the opposite principle to the 60s approach. I'm also surprised an element of Jet's bass sound wasn't DId to the recording board. Not sure how they would record and reproduce meaningfully a concrete laden large speaker cab (but I would love to hear the answer!!)
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Re: Solid, beefy lows - but where is the pickup?

Postby JimN » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:58 pm

MMStingray54 wrote:
JimN wrote:On the couple of occasions where I have been able to observe Alan Jones' set-up (and setting-up) at close quarters, I remember that he uses a little amp-top "magic box" as part of his sound. I shan't say what it is, but it seems to do something similar to another little bass-player's magic box which I was recently shown.


Do you mean a pre-amp DI with active tone controls - as a floor box possibly made by an American firm starting with the letter S?


Sadowsky!
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Re: Solid, beefy lows - but where is the pickup?

Postby MMStingray54 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:14 am

JimN wrote:
MMStingray54 wrote:
JimN wrote:On the couple of occasions where I have been able to observe Alan Jones' set-up (and setting-up) at close quarters, I remember that he uses a little amp-top "magic box" as part of his sound. I shan't say what it is, but it seems to do something similar to another little bass-player's magic box which I was recently shown.


Do you mean a pre-amp DI with active tone controls - as a floor box possibly made by an American firm starting with the letter S?


Sadowsky!


Yep!

https://m.thomann.de/gb/sadowsky_preamp ... gIoFvD_BwE

Similar 2 band (bass/treble) to that used in the highly respected high end Fender derived basses Roger Sadowsky makes.
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Re: Solid, beefy lows - but where is the pickup?

Postby cockroach » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:37 am

MMStingray54 wrote:
JimN wrote:On the couple of occasions where I have been able to observe Alan Jones' set-up (and setting-up) at close quarters, I remember that he uses a little amp-top "magic box" as part of his sound. I shan't say what it is, but it seems to do something similar to another little bass-player's magic box which I was recently shown.


Do you mean a pre-amp DI with active tone controls - as a floor box possibly made by an American firm starting with the letter S?

In terms of the location of pick ups, a pick up located near the end of the fingerboard will likely be very bassy - indeed on a Gibson EBO it's sometimes referred to as a mudbucker for obvious reasons. It does depend also on winding spec, electronics and all sorts as well.

Take a Fender Jazz - the bridge pick up was moved closer to the bridge marginally in the 70s - that's influences the tone from that pick up.

Much of the sound of a Precision comes from the position of the pick up and it's design (note a pre 57 with single coil sounds a little different).

Bass guitar relies more on low mid range than deep bass sound - that is where basses like the Precision and Stingray for instance are strong. Adding a treble shimmer (players may do this with a little amp drive or a drive pedal) adds bite to the sound - this is possible on active basses using the treble control - and it helps the sound to sit better in the mix and be heard.

In terms of obtaining different sounds from the same bass, plucking over the neck joint, near the bridge or anywhere else in between will have a major impact on your sound. And having whacking great 18" speakers in heavyweight cabinets will not necessarily help your sound to be heard - for that you need multiple smaller speakers to ensure the most important elements of the sound are heard (not sub bass rumble!!). It's totally the opposite principle to the 60s approach. I'm also surprised an element of Jet's bass sound wasn't DId to the recording board. Not sure how they would record and reproduce meaningfully a concrete laden large speaker cab (but I would love to hear the answer!!)


I would doubt that DI'ing the bass was common in UK studios back then..unlike the USA studios, like Motown, where bass and even guitars were often DI'ed..contemporary photos show Jet's Pepe Rush bass speaker cab being mic'ed only..

I have a bit of a phobia about internal or external battery powered pre-amps for guitar or bass (internal like the Music Man models)...when the battery dies, the guitar or bass is useless!! The number of times this has happened on gigs in bands I've played with convinces me that a 'normal' passive pickup equipped guitar or bass beats the high tech wonders hands down! K.I.S.S. principle...keep a simple circuit path from guitar or bass to amp etc!
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Re: Solid, beefy lows - but where is the pickup?

Postby MMStingray54 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:30 pm

cockroach wrote:
MMStingray54 wrote:
JimN wrote:On the couple of occasions where I have been able to observe Alan Jones' set-up (and setting-up) at close quarters, I remember that he uses a little amp-top "magic box" as part of his sound. I shan't say what it is, but it seems to do something similar to another little bass-player's magic box which I was recently shown.


Do you mean a pre-amp DI with active tone controls - as a floor box possibly made by an American firm starting with the letter S?

In terms of the location of pick ups, a pick up located near the end of the fingerboard will likely be very bassy - indeed on a Gibson EBO it's sometimes referred to as a mudbucker for obvious reasons. It does depend also on winding spec, electronics and all sorts as well.

Take a Fender Jazz - the bridge pick up was moved closer to the bridge marginally in the 70s - that's influences the tone from that pick up.

Much of the sound of a Precision comes from the position of the pick up and it's design (note a pre 57 with single coil sounds a little different).

Bass guitar relies more on low mid range than deep bass sound - that is where basses like the Precision and Stingray for instance are strong. Adding a treble shimmer (players may do this with a little amp drive or a drive pedal) adds bite to the sound - this is possible on active basses using the treble control - and it helps the sound to sit better in the mix and be heard.

In terms of obtaining different sounds from the same bass, plucking over the neck joint, near the bridge or anywhere else in between will have a major impact on your sound. And having whacking great 18" speakers in heavyweight cabinets will not necessarily help your sound to be heard - for that you need multiple smaller speakers to ensure the most important elements of the sound are heard (not sub bass rumble!!). It's totally the opposite principle to the 60s approach. I'm also surprised an element of Jet's bass sound wasn't DId to the recording board. Not sure how they would record and reproduce meaningfully a concrete laden large speaker cab (but I would love to hear the answer!!)


I would doubt that DI'ing the bass was common in UK studios back then..unlike the USA studios, like Motown, where bass and even guitars were often DI'ed..contemporary photos show Jet's Pepe Rush bass speaker cab being mic'ed only..

I have a bit of a phobia about internal or external battery powered pre-amps for guitar or bass (internal like the Music Man models)...when the battery dies, the guitar or bass is useless!! The number of times this has happened on gigs in bands I've played with convinces me that a 'normal' passive pickup equipped guitar or bass beats the high tech wonders hands down! K.I.S.S. principle...keep a simple circuit path from guitar or bass to amp etc!


Motown wasn't quite the signal direct from the guitar to the board - it went through a pre amp interface which is now reproduced and marketed for the public to try and get as close to the kit that was used - except Jamerson and Babbitt were genius musicians - which had a lot to do with it!! Studios would tend to use an amp as well so at Motown an Ampeg B15 flip top - presumably to assist in monitoring for the band/orchestra - which is why I wondered whether Jet's signal was DId as well. These days if you're using effects (many people do on bass - I have them but can't be asked) - you're probably going to split the signal as direct from the bass plus the effects recorded through an amp miked up. I just play direct to the board and the Stingray has enough versatility and response to changes in playing intensity/technique to provide an excellent recorded tone - so for instance if you play very hard with treble boost you can get the fuzz bass sound of Dynamite and then back off and move towards the neck for the rounded bass sound - even live!!

I was attracted to Leo (and the other three's) pumped up P bass/J bass and bought my first in about 1979 and had them ever since - the batteries are really not an issue and in all that time I've never had one die mid gig or rehearsal/practice (we're talking well over a thousand gigs alone) - I've had to change them probably three or four times just before a gig as a result of reduced output - I just carry two spares in my lead box and it's a couple of minute job to change. Some active basses have an active bypass switch which covers this point - but believe me, it's really a non issue. Ive just bought a new 2018 Stingray Special - it has two batteries..... 18 volt electronics.

Many guitarists use external pedals - as do bass players - indeed Hank as we all know was a early exponent of using external effects - most people connect them to power supplies which overcomes any battery issue (some effects absolutely devour them!!). It always amuses me to see some guitarists using fabulous flight cases to protect their pedal boards in transit only to put them in the back of a luxury car, creating lots of damage to the car - I suppose it demonstrates people's priorities!!
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Re: Solid, beefy lows - but where is the pickup?

Postby Iain Purdon » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:30 pm

I very much doubt whether the Shadows bass was DI’d in the 60s. If it had been, some of the notoriously bass light tracks would have sounded better!
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Re: Solid, beefy lows - but where is the pickup?

Postby MMStingray54 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:58 am

Iain Purdon wrote:I very much doubt whether the Shadows bass was DI’d in the 60s. If it had been, some of the notoriously bass light tracks would have sounded better!


Thanks Iain - you're probably right - and I know what you mean - a nightmare when trying to hear them to learn them!! I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that Paul McCartney's bass may have been DId at least some of the time at Abbey Road - there again my memory may be askew or it may have been the later era - JimN??
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