Too loud........ or not

[dyker124]

Hi All,

Just putting my feelers out here. There must be quite a lot of you out there that belong to guitar clubs. Have any of you ever had complaints from any of the audience/members about the music being too loud. It has certainly been the case at my club albeit very rarely. Are there any guidelines regarding this for large room type guitar clubs?

If so, who decides?

1) How loud is too loud and by who's judgement?

2) How could it be controlled as different players bring along their own equipment?

3) As loudness is a perceptual thing and trebly percussive sound appears to be louder than mellow bassy sound, how could a sound meter (db) be deployed successfully?

I am sure there are far more questions.

Regards
Roger

[Paul Childs]

Had that problem for years. I have known different people on the same night with some complaining it's too loud while at the same time others wanting it louder, so what are you supposed to do? Some people in the clubs are just miserable sods and I don't know why they bother coming out and what is the point of booking a band just to play background music when all they have to do is put on a CD?
When you set up and do a sound check the venue is usually still nearly empty so then it will sound louder in an empty room but when the crowd gets in later, with that setting you won't be loud enough. Through experience I could guess the sound level for later on when the place filled up but there is always one or two who come early and complain while you do the sound check and there is no way you can convince them of this, they're too thick to know.
Also, if your volume level is too low it is difficult to hold out notes properly which makes your playing ability look less than what it is.
I knew someone once who played solo with an acoustic and was playing in a hotel bar and kept turning down because of complaints and in the end he switched off his PA and played without it and they still said it's too loud!
These people are worse than hecklers, with hecklers you can take the p*** back with experience but these miserable ones just destroy your act.

[Stratpicker]

Quite so, Paul
My one and only foray at putting on a Session at a Care Home was a Disaster for that one reason. One single person complained and complained about it being "too loud" every time I stopped playing to change patch number etc. In the end the volume was so low that you could hear the TV in the other room ABOVE my PA. And he still went on about it!!! I stopped a 45 minute Set after persevering for 30 minutes.
As regards Club backlines, all guitars are NOT made equal in the pickup department so you are bound to get variations in the Lead guitar volume. The Player himself may not notice (he's in front of the amp usually so it sounds b---y loud to him anyway) and then what happens is that someone says "too loud, man" ("Banana Boat Song!?? Lol!) and someone comes and turns his amp down whilst he's playing. Unfortunately if the next guy up has a more sedate set of pups in his guitar he is not loud enough and gets swamped by the BT, the solution for which is probably for the Sound Desk to pull back the Fader on the BT track, rather than reset the Amp volume. And so it goes through the Session.
A Sound Meter would be a good idea IF anyone knew how to use one PROPERLY but who would be the Decider on what it SHOULD be? A poisoned chalice.
My solution to the too loud Lead guitar would be to DI the amp to the Sound Desk so quick action can be taken if it occurs.
Its a thorny problem for sure.
Just my two penn'orth.
Ian

[Paul Childs]

Stratpicker, Regarding sound meters if you mean those traffic light things that cut the power, they can damage amp valves. I know all about them and it is not always volume that cuts the power but certain long notes. Playing in a venue with one of those is like walking through a minefield.

[Iain Purdon]

A perennial problem at guitar clubs. Here there is not the same issue of an large audience turning up and absorbing the sound.

I suggest that someone you trust (maybe two) is asked to stand at the back of the venue and advise on overall volume and balance between different instruments (band) and tracks (BTs). Before this all volume pedals and guitar volume controls should be fully on, so that you get an absolute answer.

Having achieved an acceptable sound, stick with it.

PS : It is easy to play too loud. Your ears damp down to cope with it, so you don't realise it. Eventually there is so much sound bouncing off the walls and ceiling that you can't make out who's playing what. Then someone walks in with normal undamped ears and yells "too loud!!" They'll be right!

[bazmusicman]

Stratpicker, Regarding sound meters if you mean those traffic light things that cut the power, they can damage amp valves. I know all about them and it is not always volume that cuts the power but certain long notes. Playing in a venue with one of those is like walking through a minefield.

I know just what you mean.......back in the 70's we played a club that had one of these. We were playing a tune that had two lead breaks that were both the same.......half way through the solo the power cut off. Switched everything back on got to the same solo and when I hit the same note it all cut out again. The frequency of the note was tripping it....not the volume.
We were a 'Middle of the Road' band, not anything heavy.

We were all using valve amps as well, needless to say we never played that club again although we were asked.

Regards,
Baz.

[dyker124]

Hi Paul, Ian, Iain, and Baz,

Many thanks for your valued contributions.

Reading all your posts and opinions, It is exactly as I thought. There appears that is no answer to this problem whatsoever as all clubs have different dynamics. Below are my thoughts:-

1) Backing tracks, bass guitar, rhythm guitar, lead guitar, and drums all routed to mixer then to PA.

Ans) Not pheasable due to different players wishing to bring along and use their own items of equipment. Continuous routing of cables and resetting sound levels would be a nightmare.

Also any very long cables from a modern electric guitar (Stratocaster, Telecaster, etc.) must be taken through a high impedance buffer close to the guitar, otherwise the signal and tone from the guitar’s pickups will be seriously affected, particular the upper frequencies (treble content).

2) Using 2 or 3 people standing at the back of the room when setting up (prior to the start), to decide the correct level of sound. Then to leave the settings fixed, not to be altered.

Ans) This system flawed on several counts.

a) Backing tracks depending on source, can be at quite varying volume levels and have to be adjusted at the sound desk (mixer) to suit.

b) Some live band members choose to bring their own instruments and amplifiers, and when in use are set by the owner to their personal preference.

c) Lead guitar players tend play their own guitars which have many different controls and pickup types which can give very differing volume levels. The volume level being set by the owner/player.

3) Sound Meter (dB)
Ans) These fail to cure the problem on a number of fronts. To name but two:-

a) Continuously need to be read for the different instruments used and BT’s.

b) Harsh tones of high frequencies including brass backing wind instruments sound a lot louder to the human ear than lower frequency smooth tones. Both would probably have the same dB (sound) level on the meter.

Thoughts
I think that generally our clubs are there for players to let their hair down and play music and are not really for people to make polite casual conversation. The music is also played quite loud which adds to the hype and excitement. The players in the room collectively know when the music is too loud as they tend to look at each other, wince a bit, and make gestures to each other that it could do with lowering a bit. This they tend to communicate to the sound desk guys who in turn communicate to the live band (if that is the case) to turn it down a bit. That system generally works well. What cannot be overcome is the few people who keep approaching the sound desk complaining that it is too loud (in their opinion).

I will now hide my head behind the parapet.

Roger

[JimN]

There are at least two discrete lines of thought about anything which involves recorded music. They are not both right.

Many audiences are more tolerant of higher volumes being produced "live" than they are from recorded music (some of this is due to recorded music sounding "loud" because it is so compressed), meaning that there can be a preconception that "backing tracks" ought to be quiet - quiet enough, perhaps, to enable easy conversation among those who are supposed to be listening to the performance.

Well, that's one way of looking at it.

Then there's the correct way to look at it, which is that the backing track is standing in the place of a backing band and so crucially, needs to be played out at more or less the same volume that a backing band would employ.

If that is not adhered to, you're going to get all those problems about the lead guitarist perceived as too loud. Even at Shadows Clubs, where you'd expect a more musicianly attitude (no names, no pack-drill here) there can be a tendency to treat BTs as though they are mere background music and unimportant.

[JimN]

Well said, Roger (two posts above this one).

[Tony Szpala]

Gents

In industry (and any other working environment) there are documented standards for maximum noise levels as defined by "The Control of Noise at Work Regulations 2005". In very simplistic terms anyone who is subjected to a noise level of 85 dB(A) or above (referenced over a 8 hour period per day) - - which is easy to measure by a qualified person - should wear appropriate hearing protection to bring the noise level, reaching their ears, below 85 dB(A) - a mandatory requirement in working environments. Rationale is quite simple in that if you are subject to levels above 85 dB(A) for a prolonged period of time then you will loose part of your hearing acuity (well established by research).
Thus if you are concerned about noise levels get them tested.

Best wishes

Tony