Bands and The Ship of Theseus

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Bands and The Ship of Theseus

Postby abstamaria » Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:43 am

In the lockdown, the local sports car club turned philosophical and queried, if the parts of a historic car being restored are replaced part after part, at what point does the old car cease to exist, replaced by a new one? I wondered. If the paradox - called the Sorites paradox - applied to bands. If you keep replacing members, at what point have you created a new band?

For those on Facebook, here’s the link to the original club post (they created sn interesting illustration). Otherwise, I quoted their description of the paradox below.

https://www.facebook.com/manilasportsca ... 07/?type=3

“THE SHIP OF THESEUS IN THE CONTEXT OF RESTORING OLD SPORTS CARS. Locked down in our respective garages, MSCC turns philosophical The paradox is illustrated thus:-

“The ancient Greeks revered the hero Theseus, an early King of Athens, who slew the Minotaur in an epic battle. To honor him, they kept his ship in a harbour for hundreds of years. As the years went by and the wooden parts of the ship began to rot, the Greeks replaced them with new timbers, until finally, after a few centuries, every part had been replaced.

“The question then is this: is the ship still the ship of Theseus? If not, at what point did it become a new, different ship?“
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Re: Bands and The Ship of Theseus

Postby JimN » Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:39 am

In the UK, that sort of paradox is now colloquially known as Trigger's Broom.

Although the concept of a simple working tool having lasted a workman for decades, with the replacement of the handle each summer and the business end every summer was indeed an old one, it was nowhere better expressed than in an episode of the comedy TV series "Only Fools And Horses" in which the quite dim character Trigger, who worked for the local council's cleansing department as a street sweeper, told other characters that he had been using the same broom for twenty years. He explained that the broom had had seventeen new heads and fourteeen new handles, convincing himself that it was the same implement and having been awarded a council medal for economy with taxpayers' money.

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Re: Bands and The Ship of Theseus

Postby abstamaria » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:19 pm

Haha. That didn’t travel to these islands. I’ll share ot with the local club. Thanks, Jim.

From my perspective, although I may get lynched for this, the Ventures became a new, different band long ago. With the Shadows, it seems the key ingredients are Hank and Bruce.

Andy
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Re: Bands and The Ship of Theseus

Postby bor64 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:03 pm

Hi Andy,

You've right about the shads, as far as I know Hank played on every recording and stage performance (Bruce skipped a few).
The Ventures is real tombola who plays on what and when....
I've heard from a very keen Ventures fan, almost nobody of the fans give a t*ss, while the band was on tour....others recorded in the studio the albums.
Even on some of the hits the "road" Ventures didn't play a note.....kinda instrumental Mile Vanilly :shock:

Most of the Stradivari aren't in the same state they left the masters shop....neck angles are changed, the ebony boards are replaced for longer ones, because of the higher notes needed for the more modern music....
They still fetch the highest prices.
I friend of mine who worked on Mercedes 300SL Gullwings and other high end vintage cars, told me the cars with brake lining with the old asbestos have changed all. On a auction nobody cares.... Partly re sprays or full restoration they will be seen as a genuine good car....
Guitars will be called players, fakes, non original etc...

Cheers Rob
"afterwards everyone is clairvoyant"
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Re: Bands and The Ship of Theseus

Postby Iain Purdon » Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:20 pm

I think a group can get away with a new line-up as long as the changes have been made one by one over time. By Japan, Bennett, Rostill and Hawkshaw were all non-originals. If a new lead player had replaced Hank I think they could still have called themselves Shadows.

I heard an interview with Suggs of Madness. He said all seven of them had deps. As long as there were two main guys available for a gig, they would do it as Madness.
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Re: Bands and The Ship of Theseus

Postby Teflon » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:53 am

An interesting post. I'm a fan of The Bootleg Beatles. They've been going longer than The Beatles themselves and are the longest surviving tribute band, having notched up some 39 years. Thing is though, last time we saw them (last year) it dawned on me that it was completely different lineup to the band we first saw some 20 yrs ago.

They're still a great band, but would be better described as the longest running tribute bRand, rather than band!

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Re: Bands and The Ship of Theseus

Postby drakula63 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:24 am

The funny thing is, a lot of the older bands now are more like tribute bands, with either just one original member... or in some cases, NO original members! There comes a point where it just gets beyond a joke (in my opinion) and you may as well form a band yourself and call it 'The (insert name here)' and you'd be just as legit! The core of the Shadows remain pretty stable throughout their career - albeit with the odd temporary departure or period of sickness leave! I think, so some degree, I could accept a variation that contained people who had made a 'significant' contribution to the band, but when they just bring in anyone and promote them to the hallowed ranks, then it irks me somewhat. I'm not sure that I could accept the Shads without Hank. Having said that; an 'interesting' hypothetical line-up would be Brian Bennett, Alan Tarney, Alan Hawkshaw and John Farrar! Now I'd be willing to pay to see THAT! No matter what they called themselves!
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Re: Bands and The Ship of Theseus

Postby Uncle Fiesta » Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:41 pm

bor64 wrote: ... Most of the Stradivari aren't in the same state they left the masters shop....neck angles are changed, the ebony boards are replaced for longer ones, because of the higher notes needed for the more modern music ... They still fetch the highest prices ...


Yes that's interesting - if you have a '59 Les Paul its value can be seriously compromised by so much as a single screw being changed, yet a Stradivarious can comprise of nothing more than body, neck and pegbox and still be worth a king's ransom. You cab change all the other parts willy-nilly and it will matter not a jot.

Us guitar collectors still have a lot to learn don't we?
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