Shadows and Ventures Parallels

[abstamaria]

This is not intended to compare one band against the other, but to note their parallels. Each has its own, sometimes rabid (!), following.
The Ventures recorded their great hit Walk Don’t Run” on March 22, 1960, while The Shadows recorded Apache only a few months after on June 17, 1960. Both pieces inspired many thousands to pick up guitars and form bands. They were played simply and made non-guitarists think “I can play that!”

In his carefully researched book Walk Don’t Run, Del Halterman set out the history of the American band. (It is a good read and has much, very interesting information. I recommend it highly.) Del Halterman writes, and I quote:

“While The Ventures enjoyed the chart status of Walk-Don't Run, a band in the UK was experiencing an uncanny parallel. The Shadows, … backers for pop crooner Cliff Richard, had … become an instrumental quartet. Like The Ventures [whose first single was unnoticed], The Shadows had bombed in 1959 with their first recording. Likewise again, they now enjoyed the fruits of their second attempt, as Apache Columbia DB 4484] became a huge hit on their home turf. The coincidence goes even further. While Walk-Don't Run climbed several foreign charts, it stopped at Number 8 in the UK when the John Barry Seven covered of the tune. Although Barry's version only made Number 11, it seemed to have significantly dampened The Ventures' UK sales. When Danish guitar stylist, Jorgen Ingmann's version of Apache [Atco 6184] was released in America, it soared to number two while The Shadows version was totally ignored. The Shadows never did gain a foothold in America. By the same token, in nearly fifty years of world touring, The Ventures never performed on British soil, a fact sadly lamented by many dedicated Ventures fans in the UK. Considering this, Bob Bogle surmised; ‘I'm certain it was John Barry's recording of Walk-Don't Run that prevented the mass popularity we experienced everywhere else from reaching the United Kingdom. There have always been a number of loyal Ventures fans there, but never enough to support a tour. The Shadows may have been a factor, but there were good guitar bands in most other countries, and that didn't seem to affect us.’

The Ventures also lost their bass guitarist Nokie Edwards very early on. Although he later returned, on and off, Nokie wanted to play his own music. Both bands also lost their drummers in the early 1960s.

Both bands began with Fender guitars, although the Ventures used Fender (and maybe Gibson) amps and The Shadows Vox. But as 1964 began, The Ventures and The Shadows almost on cue shifted to guitars made for them by small manufacturers, Mosrite and Burns respectively. This has invited speculation in both camps as to which tracks recorded in the cusp were played on which guitar.

In the early 1960s, local combos played the hots of both bands, mixing them up in their repertoires, and not bothering to switch guitars or amps. A particular sound was not a quest then, it seems.

From my perspective as a non-musician and as most teenagers then, my interest in both bands waned by 1964. The British invasion had begun, and we shifted our attention to the Beatles and company.

In my case, I would not renew my interest in either band until almost 40 years later. “If I can learn to play Walk Don’t Run and Apache, I would be happy,” I told myself.

Andy

[iefje]

Hi Andy, very interesting to read these parallels, thank you for posting! There is also a very good article written by Malcolm Campbell, published on his website, about all tracks recorded by both The Shadows and The Ventures:
http://www.malcolmcampbell.me.uk/ventures-shadows/

[abstamaria]

Thanks, Ivo! That is a very interesting list!

Andy

[GoldenStreet]

The Ventures also lost their bass guitarist Nokie Edwards very early on. Although he later returned, on and off, Nokie wanted to play his own music. Both bands also lost their drummers in the early 1960s.
Andy

At some point, although I don't know exactly when, initial lead guitarist, Bob Bogle and Nokie Edwards swapped roles in the group. Maybe, Andy, you can provide more detail of that occurrence?

Bill

[abstamaria]

That is a difficult question, Bill, and the only clue we have is that Bob Bogle said Nokie began to play lead guitar very early on, close to the beginning. Del Halterman's book is helpful, as well as an interview of Bob Bogle in Japan. A list of track titles was read to Bob, and he was asked who played lead. That was sent to me by one of the members here from France many years ago, for which I am grateful. Others here may have more definite information.

Bob also played some lead throughout, alternating with Nokie. In I recall about 1961, Nokie left the band, so Bob (and maybe Nokie on invitation and session musicians) played lead on recordings then. That was the period when the band's publicity emphasized that the Ventures were Bob and Don only. Their album The Colorful Ventures showed only the two of them on the cover. When the Ventures played in Manila in 1962, only Bob and Don came; the bassist and drummer of the local band the Riots (mentioned in Halteman's book) filled in.

Don played lead on a few pieces as well, but those have been clearly identified.

The complicating factor is that session musicians appear to have played lead and at times whole tracks on records attributed to the Ventures, even in the very early years. Del Halterman notes several possible instances in his book. For example, if one has puzzled over the style and sound on the Ventures Never on a Sunday, that was it seems wholly recorded by session musicians, with the melody played on a mandolin. There is some speculation regarding Hawaii Five-O.

That is perhaps the basic difference between the Shadows and the Ventures. Hank played lead on all Shadows pieces (and Bruce played rhythm on all). Or so I think! I was blindsided later in life by the discovery that on some tracks I probably wasn't listening to the Ventures! Their producers explained, "that's the music business."

That is of little consequence to me, as I've broken up Ventures music into different categories, interspersed with each other through their history and played by what I deem different bands. I am very much focused only on the era ending with Ventures in Space (the first all- Mosrite album) and, there, only where Bob Bogle plays lead.

Bob Bogle's "sound" is distinct to my ears, so that is how I attribute tracks to him. That is the other Holy Grail I am chasing, apart from That Sound. The good thing is that I managed to inveigle some friends to join both quests. May they never tire.

Andy

[Uncle Fiesta]

The Ventures released so many albums that they probably didn't have time to play on them all!

The Beach Boys also made heavy use of session musicians (particularly the Wrecking Crew), contracted as they were to release FOUR albums per year. (As against the Beatles' two.)

[Iain Purdon]

That is perhaps the basic difference between the Shadows and the Ventures. Hank played lead on all Shadows pieces (and Bruce played rhythm on all). Or so I think! I was blindsided later in life by the discovery that on some tracks I probably wasn't listening to the Ventures! Their producers explained, "that's the music business."

Broadly, yes. But there are some complications even with The Shadows.
There are session musicians on many of their recordings - and on all of them from 1970.
Bruce plays lead guitar on Stand Up And Say That and Kinda Cool. Hank plays rhythm guitar on Theme For Young Lovers.
There is no lead guitar as such on Fourth Street. There may some noodling by Hank in the middle of it but it’s nothing more than that.
Likewise with Jet Harris and Tony Meehan. Session musicians are used on all their records and Jet does not play at all on Scarlett O’Hara and Applejack.
Session musicians have always been in heavy demand because their playing standard is generally very high and they can sight-read their parts, economising on expensive studio time.

[hiffclall]

Hank plays rhythm guitar on Theme For Young Lovers.

Sorry - silly question but do you mean that Hank plays both lead and rhythm on the recording? Or does someone else play lead?

[Teflon]

Hank plays rhythm guitar on Theme For Young Lovers.

Sorry - silly question but do you mean that Hank plays both lead and rhythm on the recording? Or does someone else play lead?

I always understood Hank played both the lead and rhythm tracks on that particular number as Bruce was absent at the time of recording.

On the subject of Venture and Shadows parallels, I've always thought the "Tales From a Raggy Tramline" sounded more like a Ventures track than a typical Shadows number, and subsequently wondered if it was perhaps written and recorded as a nod to the Ventures. Anyone know anything, or is it just co-incidence?

Cliff

[GoldenStreet]

On the subject of Venture and Shadows parallels, I've always thought the "Tales From a Raggy Tramline" sounded more like a Ventures track than a typical Shadows number, and subsequently wondered if it was perhaps written and recorded as a nod to the Ventures. Anyone know anything, or is it just co-incidence?
Cliff

There are some pertinent comments from Jim Nugent on this very topic in a recent We Say Yeah podcast...

https://wesayyeah.podbean.com/e/ep-2119 ... im-nugent/

Bill