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Re: How essential is the Vibrato (Trem) ?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:30 am
by David Martin
QED

Re: How essential is the Vibrato (Trem) ?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:03 am
by dave robinson
I was thinking along similar lines David. :|

Re: How essential is the Vibrato (Trem) ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:49 am
by Vincent
Uncle Fiesta wrote:This is unfortunately true. All that's required is a subtle, tasteful wiggle while remembering to move the arm the same distance up and down to prevent the note sounding sharp or flat. If done correctly, a gentle shimmer results, if not the effect sounds more like musical murder!

I know someone (he doesn't post on here) who is able to play permanently out of tune, by grabbing the arm like a weapon and yanking it violently upward after every note. (You can't tell him, of course.)

Re: How essential is the Vibrato (Trem) ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:14 am
by Iain Purdon
As I see/hear it, a tremolo arm is
a device that enables a guitarist to alter the pitch of notes or entire chords to achieve various effects

As to its use, it's a question of what "effect" is chosen and how well it works in the context of the performance. It's all down to skill and judgement.
We will all have our own opinions, just as we do about what is (or is not) "that sound"! :D

Re: How essential is the Vibrato (Trem) ?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:19 am
by abstamaria
In an interview on YouTube, Hank recommended that one waggle the trem bar all the time. But he didn’t do that in the early days.

In his excellent video on the evolution of Hank’s Apache, Paul Rossiter (Fenderplucker) noted that Hank did not use the trem bar for the main melody in the original recorded version. Listening carefully nowadays, trying to understand and copy Hank's phrasing and dynamic, I find that that is true in the Shadows' early pieces. Hank was sparing in the use of the trem bar, using it principally to dip a note, as in Sleepwalk, or increase its pitch, as in Man of Mystery.

As noted earlier in this thread, Hank did not hold the trem bar constantly in the early days. That may be consistent with his early playing style.

Trying desperately to improve (without much success) , I have been listening very carefully over very good headphones to the early Shadows recordings, which I classify as Pre-Burns. (Dave Robinson I recall set an earlier date for the early Hank "sound," but I’ve stretched that a bit to end-1963.) I also listened to Hank's later versions to see if they can help me understand, but they are so different in style and tone! And that is particularly true with respect to the use of trem bar.

Some wrote here that they preferred Hank's early style. I share that sentiment. As a musician, Hank of course needs to evolve and re-interpret, and I understand that fully. However, that early style and sound were what drew me to the Shadows, so that is what I gravitate to.

As an aside, as I have been listening carefully to the early recordings, I have noted many things our drummer is doing incorrectly. I must speak with him.

All the best,

Andy

Re: How essential is the Vibrato (Trem) ?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:02 am
by Shadbarmy1
A lot depends if you want a particular sound because over the years, everything changes. If you want to perfectly mimic an "original" sound (if that is what a vinyl record in the day was) you need the original equipment but unfortunately the "playing" will change, even by the original artist. Trem setup seems to be a "black art" and is very much a matter of personal taste (assuming that you either DIY or have someone set it up for you - or just play what you have in your hands at the time). Many years ago I attended a show at a local church, where a young man said in his introduction "We are going to play a Shadows tune now. It won't sound like the Shadows because we are not The Shadows but we hope that you enjoy our version!" It was very different and I enjoyed listening to their version. He didn't have a tremelo but shook the guitar a lot! ;)

Re: How essential is the Vibrato (Trem) ?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:51 pm
by Tigerdaisy
dave robinson wrote:OK you have an opinion, but is it valid ?
The question is " How essential is the Vibrato (Trem)!
If we are assuming this is for the music of The Shadows, it's like asking "How essential are the guitar strings "
The magic of Hank's sound is based on his expert use of the Vibrato (Trem) which back in the day was the head turner.
Sadly, 90% of people that use the same effect lack the same feeling, which is possibly why this question came about.
Without Hank's use of it there would be no discussion. Without it, the magic is absent.


Well I rarely ever use a trem arm, preferring to use my fingers. I really do prefer the older recordings of HBM where the trem is not used all the time. I agree that the trem requires skilful use but the misuse of it sounds dreadful- like Jeff Beck's 'strangled mouse' effect- I'm not saying that Beck didn't do some marvellous stuff...

Re: How essential is the Vibrato (Trem) ?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:55 pm
by Tigerdaisy
dave robinson wrote:OK you have an opinion, but is it valid ?
The question is " How essential is the Vibrato (Trem)!
If we are assuming this is for the music of The Shadows, it's like asking "How essential are the guitar strings "
The magic of Hank's sound is based on his expert use of the Vibrato (Trem) which back in the day was the head turner.
Sadly, 90% of people that use the same effect lack the same feeling, which is possibly why this question came about.
Without Hank's use of it there would be no discussion. Without it, the magic is absent.


I used to love Hank's use of the trem, but not some of his current technique. All opinions are valid.

Re: How essential is the Vibrato (Trem) ?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:04 pm
by tolo
I missed this one - interesting thread!

The answer to the original question is simply - in the context of getting close to Hank's sound - 'completely'. Whether it be in the early days when Hank was still learning and growing within 'his sound' - the bark, the echo, the wiggle of the arm on certain notes - I have mentioned many times before, the very aggressive / youthful nature of his attack on the string that he seemed to lose later on (probably after Jet left - who also used to attack the strings with ferocity to emphasise certain phrases and then back off in a masterly, controlled way) I think Hank learnt a lot from Jet about technique in those early days...

Science also has a pivotal role to play here - anyone who has played a guitar with a trem will completely understand that the tone changes materially if you are holding the arm or not... the frequency and dynamics change because of the physical contact and the range of frequency from the note is altered, the note softens a huge amount. Try it - pluck an open string without the arm and then the same string with the arm held - it almost sounds like two different instruments. Without the arm - very bright and short - with the arm - softer, warmer and with much more sustain. Your arm (and body) being an extension of the guitar itself.

So, if Hank did start to rely more on the arm as he grew older and modified his technique - then automatically the sound would change to a less aggressive and more 'rounded' sound. This, then becomes a personal opinion of which one you prefer.

Either way - in terms of Hank Marvin - the 'essential' question in respect of use of the trem - is not negotiable.

Re: How essential is the Vibrato (Trem) ?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:21 pm
by dave robinson
That's a good summarisation Tony, I can relate to that.