Celestion speakers

[abstamaria]

The 60th anniversary HW Vox AC30, which is supposed to mimic the 1964 AC30, comes with silver Celestion alnico speakers. Is it correct to say that in 1964 there was no difference between the silver Celestions and the blue Celestions except the paint? If so, is silver the correct color for a 1964 AC30??

Andy

[JimN]

My first AC30 was a 1964 model (top-boost on copper plate) and the speakers were indeed painted blue. I bought it in 1966 for £30.

But there were silver painted Celestions seen in AC30s at the time. It might well have been a simple stock issue. The speaker is the same either way.

[bazmusicman]

The 60th anniversary HW Vox AC30, which is supposed to mimic the 1964 AC30, comes with silver Celestion alnico speakers. Is it correct to say that in 1964 there was no difference between the silver Celestions and the blue Celestions except the paint? If so, is silver the correct color for a 1964 AC30??

Andy

I have a 1964 JMI AC30 grey panel with integral Top Boost and it has silver Alnico speakers.

Baz.

[dave robinson]

It's well documented that the silver or grey coloured speakers are identical to the blues, they just changed the paint.
It's worth considering that the blue speakers, as revered as they are, may not be the magic bullet people think they are, as The Shads were seen using a Selmer Stadium amp with a Goodmans 12" speaker around the time of those early recordings. In all honesty those blue speakers are not worth the money being asked today, they are quite poor and inefficient by todays standards. The main reason that everybody creams their knickers for them is because they break up and distort easily which suits the shredders, quite the opposite of what Hank needed.
After recent comparison tests, I've found the Celestion Cream-backs to be just as good sound wise and they handle a respectable amount of power. Because of that I fitted a Neo Cream back to my Vox AD50-VT and it sounds spot on.

[abstamaria]

Many thanks, Jim, Baz, Dave. That answered my questions squarely.

Your observations are always good to keep in mind, Dave.

Andy

[abstamaria]

I did my due-diligence search in this forum before I asked the questions above. I could not find answers, so am grateful for the confirmation above.

However, in one discussion here on AC30s, it was noted that “Audiom speakers [were installed] early on then celestion blue featured around the time the top boost circuits came out.”

That was a surprise to me. I have assumed, probably incorrectly, that the AC15, at least at the time the Shadows recorded Apache, and following models,were already fitted with Celestino Blues (and at some point greens). I will appreciate being set right here.

Best regards,

Andy


Andy

[phil kelly]

Hi Andy, The 1st and 2nd circuit ac15 amps were mostly fitted with goodmans audiom 60 speakers, ( circa 58 - 59 )to early for the blue celestions, after the audioms came the celestion b024 / 25 , then the oyster t530,s the 2nd circuit ac15 is cited as most likely being the amp used for apache, and i can certainly believe it,

[dave robinson]

I have just got home after setting up our gear for tomorrow's gig and having a short rehearsal with the lads at our Thursday residency.
I used my Vox AD50-VT with the Celestion Neo Creamback, setting it up on the AC15 programme and taking the signal from the second channel on my ZoomG5n, on which I've disabled the amp sims. The first channel from my Zoom G5n is feeding my Strymon Iridium which in turn is roited into the PA system, the Iridium being set to Vox AC 30 with a single Celestion Blue. Today I used my G&L, freshly strung and set up as described in the other thread and we decided to have a 'refresher' on some old Shadows tunes, Midnight, The Stranger and The Frightened City amongst the stuff we were looking at. The sound coming from the band was very close to that of the original tunes were practicing, a live sound that was very similar to the early live Shads tones, think in terms of the Kingston album, we were delighted that our efforts in listening and studying the nuances paid off. Not a real AC30 in sight as my mate on rhythm guitar also used a Vox AD50-VT loaded with a Celestion speaker he purchased years ago from Alan McKillop and very good it is too. What I'm saying is, the gear doesn't have to be exactly what our heroes used to get close, if you put some time in and listen to what it is you're wanting to emulate. :

[abstamaria]

Many thanks, Phil. That is instructive and encouraged me to search on the web.

Let me set out the conclusions I drew from what I read. This likely will need correction by the many more knowledgeable here, but I thought this, as so corrected, would be useful as a guide when this wonderful forum shifts to archive mode.

1. The AC15s up to 1960 had three successive variants that differed from each other in chassis design, circuitry, cabinets, and other features. They are referred to as the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd “circuits,” terms that Phil used above.

2. The 1st circuit is too early to be relevant to the Shadows, particularly to Apache.

3. The 2nd Circuit AC15s were manufactured into the spring of 1960. It seems only some 200 2nd circuit AC15s were built. They used Goodmans Audiom speakers (Audiom 60, specifically).

4. I am not clear when the 3rd circuit AC15 began production. However, it was introduced with a bass amp variant, for which an advertisement appeared in April 1960. Accordingly, it might be assumed that the 3rd Circuit became available at least at that time. It is likely that the production and sale of the 2nd and 3rd circuit AC15s overlapped, as JMI used up inventory.

5. It is therefore possible that Hank used either a 2nd or a 3rd circuit AC15 when he recorded Apache on June 17, 1960.

6. Celestion speakers first appeared on the 3rd circuit AC15s, which employed them principally with perhaps a few exceptions dictated by supply. They were silver or “oyster,” which I believe is the “hammertone” finish. (One can still buy spray pants with that finish, sometimes called “hammered” in the US. To be authentic, I used them on some engine compartment parts of vintage cars I restored.) These silver and oyster speakers are the “forerunners” of the Celestion Blues, but I do not know if they differed dramatically from that later model.

7. Celestion registered the Blue speakers as a new model only in in November 1960, so it seems certain the sound of Apache was not reproduced through one. The earliest known AC15 with a Celestion Blue was made in May 1961.

8. A photo of the Shadows taken on May 31, 1960 shows the band rehearsing for the Royal Variety Show. A 2nd circuit AC15 appears in the photo, its Audiom speaker clearly seen.

A photo taken on September 18, 1960 shows Cliff and the Shadows on stage with three AC 15s. Two, in two-tone cabinets, are identified as 2nd circuit amps belonging to the Shadows. It appears the third is also 2nd circuit, but this is not clear.

9. If the Shadows had and were using 2nd circuit AC15s from at least May to September 1960, it is reasonable to assume that in June 1960 they recorded Apache on such an amplifier. Phil (Kelly) has good basis for his belief.

10. On the subject of this thread – speakers - it is very likely then that the sound we hear from the original recording of Apache was through a Goodmans Audiom speaker.

There is of course the famous photograph of the Shadows in Abbey Road, said to be on the day they recorded Apache. Cliff is seen with his J200. I do not recall if an AC15 appears in that photo and, if so, if it can be clearly identified as either a 2nd or a 3rd circuit amplifier, that would close speculation on the matter.

I hope this is useful. Corrections and additions will be appreciated.

Andy

[JimN]

Hello, Andy.

I don't know whether the spelling has been mis-copied, mis-reported or is just a typo, but "Goodman" speakers, in those days made in Wembley, North West London, were actually sold under the brand "Goodmans", in the possessive form with a terminal "s" but without an apostrophe.

Their well-known model was known as the Audiom, not Audion(!). They had another pretty familiar model known as the Axiom. You can see a pattern there, I'm sure.

Just saying...!

Keep up the detective work... it's fascinating!