Echo machines...

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Re: Echo machines...

Postby PeterV » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:58 pm

David Martin wrote:This is jumping right into the maelstrom! If there's one topic which has been guaranteed to get people arguing - and bitching - furiously, it's this. So be warned... disagree with pleasure, but no nasties please.

Basics? You need one if you are to get close to "that sound"... or at least, your version of it. You can actually get away with the basic tap tempo echoes included in the Vox VT series if you are not concerned with authenticity. Problem is that, as heard on the records, the echoes - in addition to having a "tone" of their own - are unevenly spaced. Check this...

Apache.jpg


This pic and lots of other echo related stuff from the excellent Echotapper site (http://www.echotapper.nl/)

And if you check the other recorded tracks you'll hear differently spaced echoes. So you need something which will allow you to space the echoes unevenly (or better still, buy something with the work already done?) The best budget buy at the moment is definitely the Yamaha Magic Stomp which (I think) is discontinued, but there are still quite a few floating about, and if you want the job done for you Charlie Hall (good name for an echo guru... it sort of reverberates) can be contacted here http://charliehall.proboards.com/index.cgi and he will sell you a file to give you all the Shads echoes in one fell swoop. (He also programs Quardraverb Q2 and Q20 under the name of Echoes from The Past as used by Hank on Shads tours and recent recordings)

"Ah but you mentioned tone earlier?" And that's really why other current modern machines don't get a look in. They'll conceivably give you the echo, but they can't give you the degraded and wobbly sounds of an old vintage echo unit which is what we're looking for, but the Q series and MagicStomp can... with one exception. I'm currently experimenting with a Line 6 M13 Stompbox Modeller which allows infinitely variable echo spacings with up to 7 heads (with a bit of fiddling) and the ability to emulate tape wobble etc... and you can add studio reverb as per KonTiki and Midnight too if you so choose... first results are encouraging... and, of course, you get all the other effects too...

And, of course, there are the excellent TVS echoes from Australia... http://www.tvsspecialtyproducts.com/ only hampered by their cost when imported into Europe... In effect more expensive than the vintage units they emulate... solid state.

And in the UK ESE Echomatic http://www.echomatic.co.uk/... valves and real wobble!

So why not buy a vintage Meazzi, Vox, Binson etc? Well you can, from about £600 for a Binson, through to £2000 for a Meazzi, but, unless they've been faithfully reconditioned they can be very unreliable...

Now you'll find people very inflexible as to what they recommend in this area, and each will swear blind that all the others are talking nonesense, but, based on my own experience and ears, here's my recommendation...

Unless you're playing for discerning Shads nuts, the basic Vox VT tap echo will do just fine. I defy anyone to prove to me that average club/theatre audience can tell the difference.

I've heard excellent results from the Yamaha MagicStomp and you can edit the parameters on your computer to your heart's content adding wobble etc ad infinitum.

I've owned and used an EFTP Q2 for many years and find it to be excellent - still around second hand but some now suffer from duff batteries and displays as a result of age. Have the advantage (or disadvantage if you're a twiddler) of being able to switch straight to a whole range of preset Shads echoes with no knobs to worry about.

I currently also use an ESE at home and find that excellent too... (and I'm told that there is virtually no difference between its circuitry and that of a vintage Meazzi)... lots of knobs to twiddle...

I still have an old Binson tucked away (currently for sale in our Marketplace) and I used to have Roberto Pistolesi's Meazzi...

Now, I'm ducking already, there are those who will tell you that the only way to get "that sound" and in particular, those echoes is to use the old kit. But my own experience and listening to others using it just doesn't confirm that position... :geek:


David, This is a great stuff. I would like to add to your summing-up of echo gear the eTAP2 VST module with sophisticated features not found in anything else but the originals (and possible the TV product)!! So, W&F,valve, magnetic and even sound distortions ala Meazzi are all there to be grabbed for free and used to your liking. Also, you've only mentioned a couple of patches and/or embedded settings. Please be aware of the fact that www.echotapper.nl also provises for a range of exact patches called JPatches to be grabbed and used for a wide range of equipment. Those free patches are of a very high quality and fullfils the guitarplayer's needs for sure!

-Piet
PeterV
 

Re: Echo machines...

Postby Bojan » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:06 pm

One question Piet, on the eTAP2 is it possible to apply equalization to each head separately, in other words, change the frequency of each tape head separately, and if yes, how?

Thanks, Bojan
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Re: Echo machines...

Postby PeterV » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:42 pm

Bojan wrote:One question Piet, on the eTAP2 is it possible to apply equalization to each head separately, in other words, change the frequency of each tape head separately, and if yes, how?

Thanks, Bojan


Bojan, It was assumed that the heads would be very much the same so the frequency curve applies to all the heads. If there are requirements we could make it to your spec.

The only variation implemented was the position of the head in the timedomain. We assumed that drilling holes and mounting heads would introduce some small spread in timing per head. On eTAP2 this was implemented assuming a +/- 0.2mm variance in the drillplan. The resulted site effect is a much better leading edge in the echo due to this variance making it slighly smoother and even more tape-like

-Piet
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Re: Echo machines...

Postby Bojan » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:09 pm

Hi Piet . . . no special requirements on my part . . . The reason I asked was because the psp608 does have this possibility and I was just just curious whether the eTAP2 had it too. But, I think you are right with your assumption about the same frequency applying to all heads.

Thanks for responding to quickly Piet! :)

BTW, how's that "winter project" of yours coming along? Any details you would like to disclose?

Bojan
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Re: Echo machines...

Postby ernie1958 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:15 am

8-)Check this echo machine out guys..made by a former employee of Charlie Watkins... :shock:



Let's hear ya... :mrgreen:
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Re: Echo machines...

Postby John M » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:30 pm

Sounds good...but I think a bad choice of music to play as Apache has a very distinct echo pattern.
With all those heads will it achieve the apache timings????
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Re: Echo machines...

Postby dave robinson » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:34 pm

It looks a great machine and should handle all of the patches for Shads stuff - On the down side there's no 'dirt' in there i.e. WOW & FLUTTER, which is part of the magic of the old sound.
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Re: Echo machines...

Postby Bunny Ears » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:11 pm

I understand from the grapvine that Piet's eTAP Engineer was used on this track and is widely used & well regarded by players in the States for surf stuff.

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=1371547&t=2446
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Re: Echo machines...

Postby Bojan » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:00 am

Here is a demonstration of Piet's and Jacob's eTAP with new W&F capability.

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=3842
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Re: Echo machines...

Postby Rosemary » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:54 am

Hi
I'm reading these posts with much interest and although a lot still goes whoosh over my head I think what I'd really like is something like this so would welcome any thoughts.

This is the Zoom G2-1u and seems a bit cheaper than the others mentioned (of which I can't find many out here in Australia).

http://www.allansmusic.com.au/prod/FXM0 ... Pedal.aspx

From what I can gather, the Zoom G2-1u would be a smallish unit that will run on batteries and has a USB connection to download from my PC, Charlie Hall's patches which I could purchase from Charlie online.

Then I imagine the guitar simply plugs into it and then out to my little Roland Microcube, I'd select the required patch for a particular number and like magic I'll sound like Hank (if only!) ... but maybe I'd hopefully get better tones than I'm getting from the BOSS Digital Delay DD-7.

Although I've only been playing for 8 months or so it would be nice to be able to have settings stored in memory and have a sound I really liked so I could concentrate 100% on learning more tunes and playing technique. For instance if I try the string bends in e.g. Cavatina even with my lack of skill, I really don't get the effect I'm after and when I use the volume pedal the sounds are sometimes akin to our cats' miaows. (I'm sure these sounds could be improved with more playing skill and knowledge but maybe this unit would also improve the overall sound and it takes a lot of time playing around with settings when I could be practising.)

Or after all that, would the MicroCube be the weakest link? I have an American Standard Strat (and a back up 2nd hand MIM - look at that, I'm even learning the acronyms now!)

Thanks in advance
Rosemary
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