Is it all down to the lead guitar - I think not

[dave robinson]

I have recently had another look at Apache with a view to recording it with my latest toys and settings which as far as the lead guitar sound goes is very authentic.
However it has become an obsession of mine to get the rhythm guitar sound as close, because unless it is, the recording just sounds wrong. I often use the original track minus Hank as quite a few others do around here, but I am resisting this as there is a bit of 'bleed through' of Hank's guitar via the reverb which has a fabulous tone that adds to the sound of the complete track, thus making my recording sound closer than it really is.
Although my J-200 sounds 'right' when strummed live, it is not that easy to capture the same ambience that exists on Bruce's rhythm part on this particular record, so my aim is to try and do that, then I can claim to have the famous sound, it isn't just the lead guitar and before anyone shouts what about drums & bass, I agree to an extent, but that rhythm is powerful and is the main factor here. I once had a discussion with Dick and Warren about this and they too struggled to throw any light on the subject having tried . . . . . anyone any other thoughts ?

[JimN]

It might be an idea to speak to Malcolm Addey about this...

[dave robinson]

It might be an idea to speak to Malcolm Addey about this...

I don't know him Jim, do you? If so then maybe you could ask . . . .

[roger bayliss]

Has chorus ever been used on the old rhythm parts as it is often popular with accoustic sounds ?

[Twang46]

Hi Dave

There is a well known saying

"The whole is greater than the sum of its parts."
— Aristotle

So if you can ever get all the parts correct "that sound" will surely be there

I personally think that the recorded sound of "Apache" (and other tracks) can never be replicated 100% and the last few % points are never going to be.
As an example, one of the many variables to address would be something as seemingly innocuous as the temperature/humidity in the studio during the recording that has a (admittedly slight) effect on the recorded sound.

If I had the time/skills/facility's to be able to pursue this......... of course I would

So it looks like your the "Lone Ranger" for the time being Dave

Good luck

Dick

[dave robinson]

Has chorus ever been used on the old rhythm parts as it is often popular with accoustic sounds ?

Can anyone hear a chorus effect on Bruce's guitar on Apache ? . . . . . . . . . me neither. Not the way to go.

[cockroach]

Don't think they had chorus foot pedals in 1960...although I understand Bruce may use a small amount on his Strat these days when playing live

Dave, I really think there's always going to be a certain interaction between all the instruments, and the players, as on the original recording. There's always air moving about in the studio being picked up by the mikes- Tony's drums, the amp speakers, Bruce's acoustic etc

I presume you have seen the studio pictures in the '17 Watts?' book- they are all sitting around with mikes on the amps, and Bruce has Cliff's J-200, playing it in front of the studio mike which is hanging vertically off a boom stand , which is positioned sort of approximately level with or just behind his right elbow..

I presume you are playing the acoustic in front of a mike, and not recording by DI off the piezo pickup and pre-amp?

[dave robinson]

Yes John I've got that book and seen the pictures, although there were claims by those close to the Shadows that any studio photographs were 'staged' and members of the band were not in position of the actual recordings - true or not ? Who knows.

I do get a reasonable sound recording the J-200 with microphones, but I have yet to achieve the 'bigness' (if that's a word) - maybe it's in the compression, I will get there in the end.
I was messing around for a long time trying to nail the Strat sound (as many of you know) and in the end it was the humble Vox AC15 with the EF86 that proved to be the key.
All of that nonsense with the Gretsch and experiments with Roberto finally put to bed by going back to basics.
I blame myself for letting that happen, as when I visited his studio in Italy, Roberto had a1960 Vox AC15 as described above and he swayed me from trying it out, insisting on using a 1958 Fender Tremolux . I trusted him 100% so never questioned it - I have since learned the lesson. There were others too who swerved me away from the AC15 amp and I since regret taking what was bad advice. It cost me a few quid too, but best not go into all that.
Anyway onward and upward as they say . . . . .

[cockroach]

Dave, I presume also that you've got about 13-56 strings on the J-200? I think the very heavy gauges are needed to get the top moving and really get all that air moving and pumping out from the very large body. It always seemed to me that not only does the 'big'un' sound wonderful but it also records so well- Bruce, the Everly Brothers early records before they got their smaller bodied signature model, and so many others..

(I've only dared a few times to take a J-200 off the wall in guitar shops and have a quick strum- it's probably the ultimate flat top acoustic to me- but I ain't got about $AUS5,000! The big old Martin dreadnaughts also sounded incredible - with these two guitars, the sound just seems to jump out and be perfect!)

[JimN]

It might be an idea to speak to Malcolm Addey about this...

I don't know him Jim, do you? If so then maybe you could ask . . . .

I have to contact him shortly, so I might do that.

However, I do know that he is planning a book about his time at EMI and this ought to cover some of the techniques used.

JN