Hank`s early "boutique sound" .... "that sound"!

[hansaustria]

Who stood behind the sound of Hank .................................. ?

Was it Hank alone who was the creator of his unique sound or did he
have a team ( technicians ) behind him just as todays most stars?

Or did he get inspirations from other musicians at that time ( the
user of MEAZZI units.......... etc. ) or was it a coincidence by
experimenting with the echo box !

I don`t know anything about this.


Regards
Hans

[abstamaria]

Hello Hans, I think it was mostly accidentalal. Hank ordered the wrong guitar (if their information had been more accurate, Hank would have ended up with a Telecaster with banjo strings), which happened to sound wonderful with the early Vox AC15, and he then ran into that Meazzi echo, quite by chance too. Not able to deal with the heavy strings (which I think were flatwound by the way ), he relied on the trem bar, or so he says in the Final Tour interviews.

Hank was fortunate to have Bruce, too, whose musicality contributed much gto the sound.

Quite a serendipitous combination.

And then of course, they had the benefit of the excellent BBC facilities and their technicians.

Andy

[isti51]

The Sound?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndRQ1OJw0BI
istvan

[hansaustria]

The Sound?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndRQ1OJw0BI
istvan

Very nice -respect - what gear ( amps / PU / echounit ) do you use ?
I miss a little bit the your tremolo work.

This is the original LIVE THAT sound of the Shades with some little mistakes
in the bridge. Lots of less echo and a darker sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzz64XMTcdA

IMHO "THAT SOUND" is not only the MEAZZI echobox. It`s the players vibe.
First you must have the players technic - you can play the same amp and
guitar like Eddie Van Halen. If you are not scilled in taping technic you will
never sound like Eddie. But Eddie will sound like Eddie equal what amp and
guitar he is playing.

Here is an example - Hank without an echo sounds like Hank. You`ll miss
the echo at the damped notes. Hank is bending every note at the end and
this is his trademark. It`s not ONLY the echobox I think so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldjzBm-plXM



Regards
Hans

[Patrice]

Hi Hans,

I hesited a little bit for posting my message...
You'll unterstanding why below (!)

First :
As Andy says, I think that the result of the "sound of Hank" is due to a large part of luck...
"Luck" to have and play the "right" guitar plugged in the "RIGHT" (!) DRUM echobox(es) and then in the "right" amplifier(s).
If you add the "right" place : Abbey Road studio 2, its fantastic echo room and the RIGHT staff for recording...............
What a lucky man !

Nevertheless, and as you says Hans : "Who was the creator of HIS UNIQUE sound" ?
A "sound" so much UNIQUE that nobody else than Hank, in the world with the same original stuff (if possible ?!) was (is) able to acheive or reproduce.

Secondly:
During my professional life between LF electronics and, during twenty years, in selling Vintage american guitars, I was (I'm always...) like so many other fans, looking for the physical and electronic reasons which permitted to Hank to obtain (ALONE with his own toys) the philosophy of "That Sound".
For exemple in this radio recording of Man Of Mystery :
http://www.youtube.com/watch v=hkJufHToWgY&feature=player_embedded
This is not the "record sound" (mainly because the Abbey Road reverb is missing) but immediately you know that the Shadows are playing, and nobody else.
Same thing when you listen to this Wonderful Land version you posted above...(Here, the Hank's echo box is broken down !)
So:
For my own and about "That Sound", I think there is a parameter which we don't speak enough : the "structure" (the base) of the "dry's Hank" sound (Without any effects added, just his guitar plugged in the amp)
And after so many years, I think (sincerely !) that, for Hank, this "unique" structure was obtained by means of a "special" electronic low cut filter inserted into HIS Vox amps...
Two remarks:
1) When I say that, I also hope that, today, every one is convince that this original and "unique" structure was (is) a physicaly result of an elimination of the bass frequencies of the (total) spectrum generated by the guitar.
And, in the same time, without ever boosting the "high frequencies". (before the Top Boost/Bass/Treble circuit added in the Vox amps...).
2) I don't invent anything, when I say that, because it's this same physical principle of a "low cut filter" we can find on the "Brillant inputs on the Vox amps...
3) The "only" difference for Hank (and it seems only for him) is the choice (by who Hans ?!) of a "special" cut frequency and the associated "slope" (behind this cut frequency) with an attenuation which is (which have to be...for the right result) done much more faster than the one (only 6dB/oct) found on this "same" Vox Brillant inputs.

Certainly some of you'll tell me that I'm crasy to say and think that ?!
Because in 1960 it was not too "fashionnable" to custom an amp.
But...
Nothing can prove, on the opposite, that the "EMI productor" (may be Norrie or some body else) wanted to "create" a "new" and "special sound" for The Shadows as soon as 1960 ?
May be, in the beginning, it was just an "idea" to obtain the best result sound for the "lead guitar"?
And a practice result which is a very mid range for the lead guitar for placing it (in the mix) like a "singer".
And when the final result appears, we can also imagine that the production wanted to protect this "unique" (structure of) sound for The Shadows only ?..

At least !
Today, and through this message, if I speak about a "special filter", it's because I can prove it.
Or rather than (!) when a Vox amp, on sale in the shops, new or old, AC 15 or AC 30, EF 86 or not, is modified with this kind of "special electronic filter", you can hear immediately the "difference".
This, also explains why the "Sound of the lead guitar of the Shadows" is "unique"...

To be continued with NO pretension, if you are interested ?

Best regards
Patrice

(And again excuse me for my english mistakes.
You can just imagine how is difficult for me to explain in english what I'm thinking... in french !
Thank you for your indulgence.)

[abstamaria]

That is very informative, Patrice. Thank you!

Andy

[hansaustria]

Interesting stuff. I have a Gemini 3 box which is a special bass cut. It is built to get the OLD Shadows sound.
It is discontinued. It gives me the old tone when using the normal channel.

To come back to Hank. IMO one of his trademark is that he uses the tremolo nearly at the end of each note
he plays. It`s not ONLY the amp or the Meazzi. Sure if you play Wonderful Land you should have the right
echo settings at the damped notes. But this is only possible with a Meazzi not with Dynacord or Echolette
vintage units because of the lack of heads and the possibility of adjusting them.

The question is ...... " does a Meazzi colour the sound of an old AC 30 to THAT SOUND or is the basicsound
of the amp - Hanks playing - the more important fact?

Regards
Hans

[Patrice]

Hi Hans, Hi Andy.

As I said my professionnal life was always in the LF electronics.
I worked, with my father, in a french company (found by him) called "Magnetic France".
My father was (for France) one of the pionners for tape recorders since mid 50's.
This "experience" permitted to me to transform a Binson PE 603 to a SEP/Vox Echo (Meazzi), the same type of echo box used by Hank sine the Kon Tiki recording in last of January 61.
The electronic of the Binson was remplaced by the "SEP one" and the heads has been moved for getting the right delay times.
(See the Amanda site for a picture)
If I did especially this transformation it's because the Binson can simulate the record/playback on a "drum system" like the SEP, BUT its electronic might be changed too to "clone" the SEP (Meazzi) one.
(In two words ! The preamps of the SEP are totally linear for the recoerd and palyback sections, the Binson's ones work like a tape recorder : Treble boost for recording, Treble "cut" for the playback...)
Now, What can I say about this tranformation ?
1) What a LUCKY man (for Hank) to have used THIS (these) SEP...
2) Many of you are "lucky" to use an Meazzi Echomatic, with the SAME type of electronics but working with a tape.
As I own also an Echomatic (...) the MAIN difference between the two systems is the "halo" generated.
On the drum model as soon as the notes are "open" you don't hear (no more of) each (four) delay but only a "halo of reverb".
One of the best exemple for Hank to describe this is My Resistance is Low.
By comparing what's happen between the passage of the damping notes to the open ones. The "halo of reverb" during these open notes is like a Boing 747 !
3) To try to answer your question Hans :
" does a Meazzi colour the sound of an old AC 30 to THAT SOUND .../..."
- Sure that the SEP (Meazzi) colors the final result of That Sound.
But it does NOT ALONE bring That Sound. It takes part of... Very well : Yes ! But...
"or is the basicsound of the amp - Hanks playing - the more important fact?"
- If you don't have this "Hank's basic dry sound" like I say very often in french : "C'est la même chose sauf que c'est pas pareil"... If I try to translate (?!!!) : It's identical but it's not the same"...

One more time, I think (sincerely !) that there is something different in the Hank's original Voxes to get the basic sound.
It's the first trick to (try to...) reproduce.

So : If you have in stock a Vox amp (with a Normal input) and you want to try my "idea" (less than 10 euros for the adding components...) send me a private message : patrice.bastien3@wanadoo.fr
We (and I !) are too old to day to keep the "secret", if there is a secret ?!!!

Regards
Patrice

[hansaustria]

Many thanks for these interesting informations. I am a member since many years in this forum. "That sound
was talked to death" IMHO - and we all talked about echo units PU but never about the dry sound of Hank
and his unique playing by bending each note with the tremolo arm at the end that is a trademark of his
playing / sound.

As I heard the version of WL without the echobox I closed my eyes and I noticed that it sounded all the
time like Hank - and this is an improtant fact - all the Burnsstuff is less of echo and delay and very dry
and you can hear exactly that the man behind the scene is HBM.


Regards
Hans

PS: I`ve sent you a pm !

[Patrice]

Hi Hans...

I apologize for writing this here, but I don't receive any personnal message (for instance) from you...
If you'll try again ?

Regards
Patrice