Another Vibra Artist.

Anything about Burns guitars

Re: Another Vibra Artist.

Postby Jagger » 20 Feb 2011, 23:09

First off I've got no problem with anyone posting a lot.It's called information sharing as far as I'm concerned even if it's opinion.And thank you all for participating.

Second,I'd like to nail down the offset neck thingy for all those who haven't held a Vibra Artist.Here's a pic showing what is meant by an assymetric profile.Hope it makes sense.Impression was taken around half way up the neck.

Image

Third,and thanks, @ mgeek - I'm under no illusions as to the size of the job should a restoration be started,which is probably why it has never started to be honest.I think my romantic streak may have had a dose of nostalgia lately and we all know that nostalgia ain't what it once was.

Fourth,the Gretsch is lovely. I might even put the band back together. :mrgreen:

Image

Still searching for that scratchplate though.I've got the old Bender Tattycaster needing some pickups.
Jagger
 

Re: Another Vibra Artist.

Postby RayL » 21 Feb 2011, 09:30

Regarding offset contour, I'd say that your 'half-a-picture' shows a conventional neck profile.

Using the same 'blu-tac' technique on my Artist (but showing the full profile of the neck taken at the 5th fret), you can see the upward slope from the 1st string on the left up to the 5th (the shape that you get when you spread the thumb of your right hand at 90 degrees to your forefinger ie 'Jim Burns' Palm Guage')

burns artist offset contour.jpg
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Ray
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RayL
 
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Re: Another Vibra Artist.

Postby Jagger » 21 Feb 2011, 11:07

Thanks Ray.

Not sure what "half a picture" means but I just checked it against the Gretsch and it's almost the same profile,which I think agrees with your conventional description.So, that makes it a later Vibra Artist then?


Added; (Not sure what "half a picture" means) Ray.Your pic only shows up as half size when you look at the thread from an email link.If I scroll down to the topic review as I post this I can only see half the pic.Move the mouse down and scroll and the whole pic/thread can be revealed or view the full thread and the pic is full sized.Mine doesn't look anything like yours I must admit.And don't forget that I don't have a fingerboard on it.With the fingerboard fitted it would make mine an even rounder profile.

I'll have a word with my luthier mate and see what he can do with the body but it's not looking good,is it?.
Jagger
 

Re: Another Vibra Artist.

Postby mgeek » 21 Feb 2011, 14:11

Well- it's stil a relatively early one, from the Trem style, just not a super early one. I'd say '61 or so.

I don't want to give the impression that it's a lost cause. I'm pretty sure it could be saved, but the amount you'd have to pay someone to do that for you would be silly. So I'd say it's either a pretty huge favour from your Luthier mate, or...

If you do fancy owning one- a stripped but intact and presumably, playable example has just turned up on Ebay. I reckon you could get £100+ for the various bits of yours (tuners, tailpiece, stray trem, headstock badge) and if you do decide to abandon the idea of restoring, I might be interested in the labour of love that would be the carcass.

Incidentally, from the pictures, it looks to me that the trussrod cavity was routed at an odd angle- which certainly wont have helped the neck out!
mgeek
 

Re: Another Vibra Artist.

Postby Jagger » 21 Feb 2011, 21:16

mgeek wrote:Incidentally, from the pictures, it looks to me that the trussrod cavity was routed at an odd angle- which certainly wont have helped the neck out!


I noticed that but I figured it was done on purpose so that the truss rod could hold the twist at bay,which it didn't of course.It's certainly not straight up the middle by any means.So if anyone fancies ripping the fingerboard off their Vibra Artist to see if they were all like that............ :lol:

I've just had a look at the one on ebay and I promise you that is not my guitar.Spooky how his guitar body,carpet and walls are the same colour as mine though.Very spooky.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Burns-Vibra-Artiste-Trisonic-Electric-Guitar-1960-Rare-/130489132342?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item1e61c22536

That model has a different three way switch and different colour knobs.Mine were grey (past tense 'cos I still haven't found the scratchplate).The bridge is the same so I guess my one is probably original after all.Other than those bits (and the trem arm) it's the same as mine used to be.

I haven't given up on it yet but I'll be busy for a couple of weeks so the search party will have to wait until the middle of next month.If I find the electrics then the game is still on.I'm ok with a power saw and welder and I know I'll get good advice from my mate George on twisted wood.He twists it all the time but it can take years of treatment.I would love to hear it again especially through the Pignose which could have been made for it.Loudest 5 watts I ever had.

Now if you'll excuse me for a bit I need to mess my hair up,I'm gonna make some noise. 8-)

Note to self; I must put the e on the end of Artiste. ( is there a smiley that shows a smack around the back of the head?)
Jagger
 

Re: Another Vibra Artist.

Postby mgeek » 21 Feb 2011, 22:16

Jagger wrote:
mgeek wrote:Incidentally, from the pictures, it looks to me that the trussrod cavity was routed at an odd angle- which certainly wont have helped the neck out!


I noticed that but I figured it was done on purpose so that the truss rod could hold the twist at bay,which it didn't of course.It's certainly not straight up the middle by any means.So if anyone fancies ripping the fingerboard off their Vibra Artist to see if they were all like that............ :lol:




I'd be very surprised if they are...although- that might explain why so many of the necks have twisted over the years!

I think that's a proper factory bodge, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the twist was caused entirely by it's misplacement.

If you think about it- when the inevitable bow set it- the tightening of the trussrod that would have followed would have pulled the neck back more on one side than the other- in this case the bass side...as is consistent with your photo.

If you do get to the point of sorting the twist out, I'd be tempted to plug the route with a strip of matching mahogany, and recut it! Hell...might even be worth getting a new neck made!
mgeek
 

Re: Another Vibra Artist.

Postby dusty fretz » 22 Feb 2011, 01:49

Replacing the Vibra Artist's bridge was a common mod back in the day, as the factory-fitted component was prone to annoying buzzes and rattles. To remedy these I put a free-standing Bigsby version on my Burns in 1963 and it was still present when this guitar turned up on eBay 45 years later! The instrument currently up for auction has been retro-fitted with a Japanese-origin, single-bar bridge, whereas the 'bag of bits' for Jagger's guitar includes a more deluxe German-made replacement, equipped with six saddles but equally non-original.

Going by the construction and surviving correct components, I agree with RayL's and mgeek's assessment of the production date. Early Burns employed open-backed tuners, before the company switched to the Van Gents with teardrop covers, while the rosewood fingerboard, selector switch type and vibrato unit design also point to circa 1961.

Incidentally Burns used both Vibra Artiste and Vibra Artist when describing this six-string, so there's no need to be too anal about the spelling. The original fixed bridge incaranation, introduced in December 1959, initially laboured under the long-winded title of the Short Scale De-luxe Artistes Model!

Without wishing to depart too far from the original thread, I feel I should respond to the comments made concerning the poor quality of early electrics built by Jim Burns. It should be remembered that this was literally a cottage industry in Britain of the latter 1950s; demand for solid electrics was still small, while facilities, materials and know-how were in equally short supply. My recent research has confirmed that, despite such deficiencies, Jim Burns was a true pioneer, producing the UK's first commercially built solid electrics, with both six- and four-strings appearing in mid-1958, courtesy of the Supersound company and well ahead of any home-grown competition.

On a similar tack, I'm not aware of the stated 'rumour' concerning Jim Burns being given the boot by Henry Weill. I interviewed the latter at length when preparing The Burns Book and he made no mention of such a scenario, instead saying Jim had quit suddenly to start his own company, leaving an unhappy and irate Henry very much in the lurch. Presumably the contradictory story has arisen via internet-expressed opinion rather than substantiated hard fact - unfortunately an all too-frequent occurrence in these digital days. The same applies to the adverse observations made about Jim Burns on the Supersound website, as my recent dealings with actual personnel and paperwork shows these to be far from accurate - a fact now acknowledged by the person who voiced the original somewhat vitriolic opinions, although as yet they haven't been corrected on the wonderful web.
dusty fretz
 

Re: Another Vibra Artist.

Postby Jagger » 22 Feb 2011, 10:29

Paul,thank you.Nice information.

I seem to remember that there were two smallish holes in the faceplate under the bridge shown in my pics which would sort of correspond to what I think may be an original bridge in this pic. (on ebay at the minute if anyone's interested).

Image

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1960-VERY-EARLY-BURNS-TREMOLO-UNIT-CHROME-USED-/320660329589?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item4aa8d85475

The story I was told was that the multicore wiring was what was to hand at the time rather than being a design choice, although whether that was still the case in 1961 I have no idea.I think I'd better get me a copy of those two Burns books I keep seeing referenced.It's a fascinating story of what Paul rightfully describes as the start of English solid body electric guitars.Sorting fact from fiction is always fun.

No problems with any deviation from the original thread.So far I've learnt that my old Burns is a Vibra Artist,from it seems 1961 ish,with a non standard bridge and a dodgy truss rod (although I'm still not totally sure about that, more opinion welcomed on that score).That's more information than I could find in thirty odd years of scratching around.So keep it coming please.
Jagger
 

Re: Another Vibra Artist.

Postby cockroach » 22 Feb 2011, 10:59

If you're interested in the wiring etc, I remember that on my VA the three position switch gave the neck, all three pickups and bridge pickups respectively.

Thus, in the middle position, with all three pickups on, you could use the individual pickup volume knobs to balance or swap pickup combinations. I used to be able to get a nice hollow -Mark Knopfler- almost acoustic sound (like a later Strat with a five position switch...this was in 1967!)

The Tri Sonics were very powerful and loud, with a thicker tone than Fender pickups. There was a small slide switch (for rhythm or lead)

The fret spacing was a bit fiddly due to the short scale, but I liked the slim neck as I have smallish hands. Mine had the closed teardrop shaped machine heads.

It also had the blade type pickup switch, not the toggle type shown in the e-Bay picture above- I remember seeing a photo of the Searchers in Beat Instrumental magazine in 1963, and Mike Pender had a VA- with Sellotape holding his pickup switch onto the scratchplate!
cockroach
 

Re: Another Vibra Artist.

Postby dusty fretz » 22 Feb 2011, 12:15

Hi Graham,
The holes you mention (three, rather than two) were for the screws securing the original Burns bridgeplate. I found that the 'bowtie' style Bigsby bridge base neatly covered these, but still allowed an angled location that improved overall intonation, which was why I chose this more expensive solution at the time.

That 'original bridge', accompanying the Burns vibrato unit currently on eBay, is actually a a home-made string tension bar. Burns subsequently introduced something similar (but much better in quality) that accordingly increased downward string pressure over the bridge, thus helping to eradicate those aforementioned buzzles and rattles. This component usually accompanied the later type vibrato tailpiece, although I've seen quite a few transitional Vibra Artists where it was paired with the original flat-plate unit. Just as an aside, the same piece of metalwork, equipped with a rubber strip, also saw service as a string damper on some Burns basses.

Your neck can be repaired by installing a new rosewood fingerboard, suitably shaped and fretted to counteract the twist and provide a suitably straight surface. The spiral warp will still be visible, but the guitar will actually play properly. A decent repairer can perform this pretty common restoration job and it would be a good time to also address any action problems via the same method, as these old Burns often tended to differ in the neck-to-body angle department, with the more extreme cases causing string height hassles.

Predictably enough, Vibra Artist circuitry also varied. Early versions were wired comparatively conventionally, presumably as per Cockroach's example, but Burns later discovered various electronic tricks and incorporated them accordingly. The end results were often quite confusing, as the six rotary controls then interacted and no longer corresponded to an obvious three volume/three tone configuration. This meant that turning one pot affected another etc., even changing their actual functions. The idea was to provide greater sonic versatility via series, parallel and out-of-phase operation, long before such aural options became fashionable. Mine was wired in this manner and I soon learnt not to fiddle too much with the controls, especially on stage, as a preferred sound was easily lost and could prove equally tricky to recover! Having recently re-acquired this oldie, I don't intend to suffer in the same way again and have accordingly concocted an updated, far more logical layout.

Despite its drawbacks, the Vibra Artist was an innovative electric that certainly boasted an advanced feature count for the time, including a double-octave neck with heel-less body join, comprehensive controls, fully adjustable six-saddle bridge and a usable vibrato unit. Of course, such a spec didn't come cheap, and at almost £80 this model obviously targeted the pro player, not the beginner market favoured by most UK makers.
dusty fretz
 

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