The ShadowMusic Web Community

Hi Rob,
Alfons obviously included the instruments he'd sold in his serial number list, but as you say, like this particular Double Six, the appropriate info on it now belongs to you! I therefore trust YOU don't object to me using these details and I hope the new owners of his other subsequently sold examples feel the same way.

I really don't know where these very precise production figures come from. For example, I've seen 315, 350 and 450 authoritatively stated for the Marvin, while Burns apparently manufactured either 20 or 200 Split Sound six-string basses, depending on which 'accurate' amount/account you believe! I can cross-reference enough research material to arrive at educated estimates for most models, but I can't claim the results are exact and they usually contradict the quantities quoted elsewhere! This was one of the reasons why I decided a serial number database was well overdue and I just wish I'd started it a lot sooner.

I appreciate your suggestion regarding a revised, updated and significantly expanded edition of The Burns Book. It would be nice if it was indeed that easy, but as I've previously stated on here, these days such a project simply isn't a viable proposition in terms of time, effort or possible financial return. The market for guitar books is now appreciably smaller, even for those concerning the more mainstream makes and models, so potential publishers tend to steer well clear, which sadly means all the additional information I've avidly accumulated over the years won't be put to good use.

Hi Paul,

Of course I don't mind you use my guitars data for future use, because why would I give it while I have problems with this all
Btw my Marvin has a serial number plate with two rows of pat. numbers. and all scratch plates and back plates screws are slot-headed instead the usual Philips heads.
Presumably the office intern was send out to the local hardware shop when they run out of Philips heads....who knows
Regarding a new and most wanted/needed Burns book.... I can understand your hesitation to published it again at this time...
But it seems that Paul Balmer with his maintenance books under the Hayes umbrella has a good deal, even with the revised versions just a couple of years after the first publishing.
Tony Bacon is maybe a source as a co-writer ship/ publishing adventure.

Let's be honest there is just one real genuine "guitar guru", so who has the blatant rudeness to show you the door
Strange also there is no money from some fund to publish a definitive book about Brittan's most successful guitar brand....maybe including Sheregold etc.

Maybe it's a idea if nothing is done with all the facts an knowledge in a book....to publish all on a dedicated website, because it would be a "deadly sin" to lost it all or to leave on the shelf.....

Just my 2p

Cheers Rob

Hi Rob,
Many thanks for granting me YOUR permission to include YOUR guitars, and here's hoping most collectors/website owners etc. will feel the same way!

I have seen quite a few original Marvins equipped with slot-head screws and also some with a selection of both types, so like you I assume Burns used whatever was available at the time, as long as the size was right. There was certainly no mystery involved with such variations, because as with any guitar manufacturer, it was merely a case of getting the guitars out the door!

I obviously don't know the details of Paul Balmer's deal with Haynes, but his books are essentially maintenance manuals and therefore address a different market to historic fact reference books, which are very definitely in less demand than they used to be. Obviously Tony Bacon and I have worked together on many occasions in this field and we've often discussed the possibility of a new Burns Book, but his company certainly isn't willing to be involved, simply because interest in the brand isn't big enough to warrant the financial gamble.

I agree that a website offers an alternative outlet, but who pays for all my time and effort putting the information on there for all to view for free? I've been a professional writer for 30 years and I'm afraid I have no intention of now doing the same job for nothing! I realise this sounds very mercenary, but a worthwhile financial incentive is essential because I've never played or written for free and the bills still need to be paid.

All valid points, Paul.

Just to throw something else into the mix. Publishing has changed, particularly with regard to e-books. OK, you still have to write the stuff but publication is not reliant on large print runs, or indeed on a print run at all...

Says he, whose Ultimate Shadows Biography still exists only in his mind... (though bits of it are also on his laptop!)

George

There are a number of people who have commented on various sitess regarding Paul Day publishing a revised Burns book albeit in a Web based format.
I can fully understand Paul not wanting to do the work for nothing. I guess a lot of the research and collecting and double checking has already been done by Paul but there is still a lot of work in putting a book together .
Eastwood seem to have a current idea in the building of very specific guitars in that they ask people to commit by committing a deposit and if the target is reached they manufacture.
Perhaps if the numbers of Burns fans were approached with a view to committing to then purchase of a book then it may become feasible.
When I look around for reference books they vary a lot but let's say people might commit to pay £40 ( I would personally ) How many would it take for Paul to be willing to take the plunge in doing the work. Only Paul could answer this.
Certainly copies of the old Burns Book sell for reasonably high prices.
I can't think of anyone better who could ever be in a position to be able to publish with the detail Paul has.
Just some thoughts

I have indeed investigated the various modern alternatives to conventional publishing, e.g. e-books, Print-On-Demand (POD), self-publish schemes etc.. Some of these can seem quite cost-effective, although only for all-text type books, such as a novel, because once photos enter the frame the prices involved escalate dramatically. To bring the Burns story fully up to date (i.e. 1980 onwards) and also include all my additional research, a new edition would naturally need to be appreciably larger, but as I’ve discovered, something pretty basic at around just twice the size (200 pages, A4 format) works out about £45 per copy via Blurb or a similar POD company, which is a pretty prohibitive price. Apart from all my (unpaid) preparatory and writing tasks, I also have to factor in the photographic costs, plus those for any additional production work, layouts etc., all of which means that the final figures become too high for me to consider being even remotely viable.

Back when the original book was written, other income allowed me the freedom to indulge in what was essentially a hobby-based project. I also benefited from the very able assistance of Peter Robinson, whose abilities enabled the book to become reality but without breaking the bank. These days my economic environment is significantly smaller and as an OAP I simply don’t have the resources to spare for what would have to be a far more ambitious repeat performance.

Anyway, all this conjecture concerning an updated edition presupposes that I actually want to write it, whereas in truth I would LIKE to do so, but I certainly don’t need to, nor do I intend to take the DIY road again! If the vital financial backing was in place, and if an accordingly supportive publisher said I HAD to do the job, then my decision would be much easier, as my workload would be less and I'd be paid in the process. However, such an ideal scenario is unlikely to materialise these days, so I’m afraid the successor to my first literary labour won’t be making it into print or any other medium.

But enough of all this badgering, back to the serious subject of serial numbers!!!

1. I for one would be prepared to pay an upfront fee, as suggested by Bill.
2. There must be a graphic / book designer who visits this site and other Burns related sites, and would be willing to help Paul.
3. Back to serial numbers.......

I'll reiterate what I said in my previous posting: I do NOT intend to go down the DIY route again, regardless of who might be able to help me in this capacity. Since the original edition I've worked for various 'proper' publishers on over 150 books and despite being regularly ripped-off regarding due recognition and/or revenue, I still prefer this option, as at least it lets someone else take the financial strain and handle everything except the factual aspects. Therefore the only possible way I would even consider investing my efforts in a follow-up is if I could find some sort of 'sugar daddy' who's a big Burns fan, owns an efficient, upmarket publishing/production company and isn't averse to losing a large dollop of dosh.

I really do think it's time to drop this particular topic, as in the comparatively near future such a book won't really matter too much anyway - most of those who at present can recall the brand in its heyday will either be long gone or well beyond worrying about the instruments and their associated exponents! My only real regret is that my additional research wasn't employed to good effect a few years back, but even then no one was willing to put proper money in place of mouth.

I realise all this makes the current quest to collate a serial number database seem like a somewhat empty exercise, but it's not necessarily book-related and the results WILL actually serve a variety of practical purposes, if only in the here and now!

Burns Marvin

April 64 6877

Regards
Stuart

Maybe a little off subject topic, but a serial number database, like this one, would be well worth alone for the Marvin model ... http://burstserial.com

Pol