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MeBHank wrote:

Iain Purdon wrote:As someone always ends up saying in these discussions, “it’s all in the fingers.” Use any rig you like, expensive or cheap, but if you don’t play like a 19-year-old Hank, you won’t sound like a 19-year-old Hank.

Nor does the 80-year-old Hank! Why would he?

Absolutely true. Once upon a time I used to have the best vintage gear possible. I never used to shut up about it. But now, thanks to life changes and budget issues, I'm using what is probably the cheapest possible rig to get an accurate Hank sound... and I'm still inundated with compliments and questions about how I get my sound! Often from people who have far better equipment than I do! Go figure!

Hi Justin,

Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure of attending one of your live concerts, but I have little doubt that the playing and sound would indeed be great.

However, my opening post was not about a good (or even great) sound, but rather one that is completely authentic to the original recordings, or at least as close as possible given the acoustics of the auditorium. How close would a recording of one of your concerts be compared to the original recordings? I also think that the visual stage presentation using authentic equipment is an essential part of the concert experience.

Nevertheless, as I said above, I agree entirely about the importance of "it's all in the fingers". What I find hard to accept is that the 80 year old Hank couldn't possibly play like the 19 year-old Hank, given his prodigious talent and also versatility demonstrated with his gypsy jazz.

Paul.

Good morning, Paul.
One very important ingredient which has not been mentioned in this thread is the effect that the other three (particularly the original line up) had on colouring the sound of Hank's guitar.

I know that you believe this to be an important factor as you always use the original backing track when demonstrating how close you three guys get to the original recordings.

On some later produced CDs, Hank's guitar can be isolated and it sounds very different without the backing - sometimes quite 'ordinary'

For me, the original line up Hank, Bruce, Jet and Tony had the perfect chemistry for those early recordings, especially when behind Cliff on the 'Me and My Shadows' album.

fenderplucker wrote:What I find hard to accept is that the 80 year old Hank couldn't possibly play like the 19 year-old Hank, given his prodigious talent and also versatility demonstrated with his gypsy jazz.

Prodigious talent is not in dispute, Paul.

But people go through physiological changes as they get older. The testosterone that shaped the young man’s attitude is not there in the same concentration in the old man. Hair falls out or changes colour, voice timbre changes, arthritis sets in so things that used to be easy now hurt - or are not longer doable at all. Eyesight and hearing deteriorate, as do energy levels. Then there’s the question of motivation. Does the old man want to reproduce his young self?

I don’t know Hank personally, so I’ve no idea whether such things interest him. My hunch is that his priorities may not be as some would wish them.

Why not give him the rig you have described and see whether his version of The Savage is like he does it now or as it was on the single release!

Iain Purdon wrote:

fenderplucker wrote:What I find hard to accept is that the 80 year old Hank couldn't possibly play like the 19 year-old Hank, given his prodigious talent and also versatility demonstrated with his gypsy jazz.

Prodigious talent is not in dispute, Paul.

But people go through physiological changes as they get older. The testosterone that shaped the young man’s attitude is not there in the same concentration in the old man. Hair falls out or changes colour, voice timbre changes, arthritis sets in so things that used to be easy now hurt - or are not longer doable at all. Eyesight and hearing deteriorate, as do energy levels. Then there’s the question of motivation. Does the old man want to reproduce his young self?

I don’t know Hank personally, so I’ve no idea whether such things interest him. My hunch is that his priorities may not be as some would wish them.

Why not give him the rig you have described and see whether his version of The Savage is like he does it now or as it was on the single release!

Great post Iain, I couldn't agree more.
Graham.

Graham S wrote:

Iain Purdon wrote:

fenderplucker wrote:What I find hard to accept is that the 80 year old Hank couldn't possibly play like the 19 year-old Hank, given his prodigious talent and also versatility demonstrated with his gypsy jazz.

Prodigious talent is not in dispute, Paul.

But people go through physiological changes as they get older. The testosterone that shaped the young man’s attitude is not there in the same concentration in the old man. Hair falls out or changes colour, voice timbre changes, arthritis sets in so things that used to be easy now hurt - or are not longer doable at all. Eyesight and hearing deteriorate, as do energy levels. Then there’s the question of motivation. Does the old man want to reproduce his young self?

I don’t know Hank personally, so I’ve no idea whether such things interest him. My hunch is that his priorities may not be as some would wish them.

Why not give him the rig you have described and see whether his version of The Savage is like he does it now or as it was on the single release!

Great post Iain, I couldn't agree more.
Graham.

So guitarists like Robby Januarsa, Lee Restarick, Colin Price-Jones, Gary Taylor, Phil Kelly and others can do a pretty good job of playing like a 19 year-old Hank but he can't??? I don't think age has anything to do with it, but rather a desire (or lack of it) to actually reproduce the sound and feeling of the originals.

Paul.

To be honest, I really can't see why Hank would ever want to play just like he did when he was 19. At that age, he was very much still a work in progress, and has since had some 60+ years of learning, developing, and evolving as a musician. From a personal perspective, I love his early sound and style, but would be amazed if Hank had any desire to regress back to his "beginner" years.

I've no doubt he's quite capable of playing in his early style, but sadly suspect it more likely that if a 19 yr old Hank could have heard the 80 yr old version of himself, he would likely have strived for that sound and style on the early records. .

Just my thoughts, and it's interesting to ponder on these things. I'd love to know what Hank thinks of his early playing style.

Cliff

Iain Purdon wrote:

fenderplucker wrote:What I find hard to accept is that the 80 year old Hank couldn't possibly play like the 19 year-old Hank, given his prodigious talent and also versatility demonstrated with his gypsy jazz.

Prodigious talent is not in dispute, Paul.

But people go through physiological changes as they get older. The testosterone that shaped the young man’s attitude is not there in the same concentration in the old man. Hair falls out or changes colour, voice timbre changes, arthritis sets in so things that used to be easy now hurt - or are not longer doable at all. Eyesight and hearing deteriorate, as do energy levels. Then there’s the question of motivation. Does the old man want to reproduce his young self?

I don’t know Hank personally, so I’ve no idea whether such things interest him. My hunch is that his priorities may not be as some would wish them.

Why not give him the rig you have described and see whether his version of The Savage is like he does it now or as it was on the single release!

Hank (and Bruce) actually 18 in June 1960?

Mention of The Savage makes me think it highly unlikely that Bruce would ever come even remotely close now to replicating his playing on the original recording. I suspect he must have been feeling particularly energised on that May day in 1961!

Bill

fenderplucker wrote:So guitarists like Robby Januarsa, Lee Restarick, Colin Price-Jones, Gary Taylor, Phil Kelly and others can do a pretty good job of playing like a 19 year-old Hank but he can't???

Indeed, but that’s not what I said. I said that Hank doesn’t sound like his 19-year old self, not that he can’t!

fenderplucker wrote:I don't think age has anything to do with it, but rather a desire (or lack of it) to actually reproduce the sound and feeling of the originals.

I have no idea what effect age has had on Hank personally, we’re all different. I just listed a few things that can change us over the years. However, the desire to sound that way is exactly what I meant by “why would he?”

A lot of us on this forum passionately want to reproduce the sound on the early Shads records and to a greater or lesser extent achieve it. Whether Hank is driven by a similar desire to sound as he once did is another matter. You’d have to ask him!

Hi Iain,

I think that we are actually in agreement about Hank's unquestionable ability vs his desire to reproduce the old sound, as I already said a couple of times above. Looking back over his long (and continuing) stellar career he has demonstrated enormous development in style and adaptability to different genres (e.g MWF and most recently Gypsy Jazz). I spent many hours with him in the studio while he recorded his parts for the Reunited CD and some of the earlier ones and it was clear that for him the musical expression was the main game as he tried numerous different phrasings etc, but rarely, if ever, played with the amplifier settings or post recording effects like equalization.

As to the question of "why would he?" I guess that would come down to his judgement about what the paying audience wanted. As others have said above, they (and myself included) went to the concerts just to see and hear him and the band play. Anyone who can have sell-out concerts around the world like they did must be doing something right (and I confessed to purchasing a T-shirt!). But in my opening post on this thread I simply expressed the feeling that, for a tragic like myself (and possibly many others who support local Shadows club meetings and chat sites), it would have been nice if the sound was closer to the original recordings like other many artists can manage, and I suggested how this might be achieved.

Paul.

Interesting discussion, this. Hello, everyone, from Manila. I’m still trying to play 36-34-36 well, trying to imitate the 19-year-old Hank Marvin.

With Best wishes to all,

Andy