The ShadowMusic Web Community

Can you get solid, beefy lows out of the Burns basses?

This quote from the John Rostill bass thread made me ponder about the position of the pickup(s) on a bass guitar.

As we know, a pickup mounted nearer the centre of a string will pick up more of the fundamental frequency - it will sound 'bassier'. Interesting, then, that the pickup for the Precision, the worlds most successful bass guitar (and the most copied), is 11 and 12 inches from the 12th fret (because it is a split pickup). Leo could have put the pickup as close as 7.5 / 8.5 inches to give a deeper tone yet he didn't. Why?

I don't have a Rostill bass, but I have a Burns Bison, which also has three pickups mounted in a similar fashion. The fingerboard pickup of the Bison is 9 inches from the 12th fret. Doing a direct comparison against a Precision-style bass the Burns (as you'd expect) has more fundamental.

The continuing success of the Precision suggests that deep bass tones on their own are not what is wanted for pop music. For Shadows music, Jet set the early style and his sound on record has very little deep bass. Jet, I'm sure, intended it to be heard even if it was coming from the little loudspeaker of a Dansette record player - essential when offering things like 36-24-36.

Of all the people who have played bass with The Shadows, the furthest from the 'Jet' sound must be Mark Griffiths. Where Jet used a plectrum, Mark uses his fingers. Where Jet wanted to be heard as a distinct instrument, Mark's soft tone merges into the background, heard best on wide-range audio equipment and lost on 'Dansette-type' plastic speakers. Neither could be said to produce 'solid, beefy lows'. For those you need Alan Jones.

Ray

That is a most interesting analysis. It suggests, just as with the long-running debate about the lead guitar sound, that it's not just the choice of bass and the electronics that follow, but also the way the player tackles it.

Alan Jones playing a Precision tends to use his plectrum right over where the pickup is mounted. Unlike the energetic young Shads bassists of the 60s, he does not pick particularly hard. Maybe this means fewer transients and therefore more natural string vibration?

When setting up for a gig, I saw Alan working to get the top end to sound the way he wanted it because, he explained, that's the bit you hear in the mix. Once he was satisfied with that, he would wind in the bottom end, the bit you feel.

Iain

On the couple of occasions where I have been able to observe Alan Jones' set-up (and setting-up) at close quarters, I remember that he uses a little amp-top "magic box" as part of his sound. I shan't say what it is, but it seems to do something similar to another little bass-player's magic box which I was recently shown.

Regarding the issue of pickup placement location, whether guitar or bass, and also considering where and how hard or softly a player picks and strums the strings, to seek maximum tonal and timbre variation, I think the most useful and versatile setup is to have three pickups...

I still think a Strat type setup covers most guitar requirements, and if a wide tone range is similarly sought for a bass, then the Burns Bison/Shadows bass would probably cover most sounds.

IMHO, although their simplicity and ease of use makes single pickup guitars popular with some players, I do think a minimum of two pickups is necessary on a guitar, whereas on a bass, one or two may be sufficient..I always thought that the standard single pickup Precision bass is a good practical compromise for simplicity and ease of use however- tonal variation being possible via the bass guitar and amp controls and where you strum and pick the strings..and if I could only have one pickup on an electric guitar i would probably choose the middle position location for the same reason.

cockroach wrote: whether guitar or bass. . . . I think the most useful and versatile setup is to have three pickups...

Now that opens up a very interesting topic. Although my first solid electric guitar was a 3-pickup Burns Artist (see my avatar), I've realised over the years that the way I play single-note style (heel of the hand over the bridge, little finger curled round the trem arm, plectrum held with index finger and thumb) means the plec ends up over the middle pickup and too often it clouts it. The middle pickup simply gets in the way. That includes Strats.

Getting back to 3-pickup basses, the same 'middle pickup' problem doesn't arise for me because I haven't got a little finger round a trem arm. I can find a place between the pickups to 'dig in'. Mind you, I wouldn't use my Bison for stage use - too bl***y heavy!. It makes some nice sounds in the studio, though.

Ray

Any time I’ve seen Dave Richmond wearing a bass guitar, it’s been a Burns Bison. He can certainly make any sound required.

(He also plays upright bass on all the Brian Bennett Bond tracks that don’t have Mark Griffiths on bass guitar.)

RayL:

I just finished listening to Jet Harris on "Man of Mystery". Lots of those " solid, beefy lows" I referred to on the other thread from his P Bass and pick! "The Stranger" sounded pretty darned beefy too.

I listened to it on YouTube through a NAD receiver and Paradigm Atom speakers and the bass sound was huge. Not sure what kind of bass strings he used back then. They sound like flatwounds but I am guessing he used roundwound Rotosounds. Anyone know?

Maybe "Man of Mystery" and "The Stranger" were recorded in the studio (Abbey Road?) that had a huge bass speaker embedded in concrete.

I am no expert but I think bass guitar strings back then were generally flatwound.

In 1959/1960, Fender still produced (and fitted to their instruments) only flatwound bass strings. They didn't have any other product.

Roundwound strings for bass were a later development. From memory, they were first made available by Danelectro in the USA and Rotosound ("Swing Bass") in the UK, but not until at least 1962 and it took some years before they became popular. This was, I suspect, at least partly due to the reluctance of bassists to buy new strings when the ones they were using were serviceable. Either way, just about every bass guitar you ever saw in the first half of the 1960s, new or used, was fitted with flatwounds.

James How (makers of Rotosound strings, as they were later called) produced a flatwound set they called "Jet-Bass", probably in an early sponsorship deal with The Shadows (or Jet at least). These were four-string sets (not six-string bass) so the deal must date from Jet's time with The Shadows.

Rotosound also produced the "Tru-Bass" set (roundwound with a black nylon tape-winding) from around 1963 or 1964. Burns supplied those black Rotosound bass strings as (if I recall correctly) "Bison Bass strings". All Burns strings were made by Rotosound.

There's an interesting thread (dated 2010) at: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/history-of-bass-guitar-strings.791848/

JimN:

Thanks for the info...especially about the "Jet Bass" flatwounds. And the string options available in the UK back in the early 60's.

Here in Canada, Fender flats were the standard strings for P-Basses for many years. They were all you could find in most music stores too, especially in Northern Ontario where I lived for much of the 60's. However, one music store in North Bay carried some Shadows recordings...45's and LP's! It was a remote outpost for Shadows fans back then.

The movie "Summer Holiday" gave the Shadows some exposure and converts here ....and "The Young One's" got lots of radio airplay too. But after that, Shadows fans here were left high and dry until the internet and YouTube came along.