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drakula63 wrote:...Which reminds me...

I've got a few Shadows live bootlegs (as I'm sure we all have) recorded from within the audience in many cases. I've lost count of the number of times I've said "For God's sake - SHUT UP!" as I've had to listen to people nattering during Brian's drum solo! Unbelievable. But true!

Regarding people nattering during Brian's drum solo. Although I could always listen to it, I have heard it said by some people that in more recent years 'Little B' has got longer and longer live. Maybe for some it goes on too long and that is why they start nattering.

Paul Childs wrote:

drakula63 wrote:...Which reminds me...

I've got a few Shadows live bootlegs (as I'm sure we all have) recorded from within the audience in many cases. I've lost count of the number of times I've said "For God's sake - SHUT UP!" as I've had to listen to people nattering during Brian's drum solo! Unbelievable. But true!

Regarding people nattering during Brian's drum solo. Although I could always listen to it, I have heard it said by some people that in more recent years 'Little B' has got longer and longer live. Maybe for some it goes on too long and that is why they start nattering.

Hmmmm. Yeah, but still no excuse for it. And it wasn't just Little B; Honourable Puff Puff and Arty's Party (etc) too. Even if you're not a drummer or have an appreciation of such things, not really good form to be chatting during it. Anyway, the longer the better, I've always thought.

Admin wrote:There is a lot of merit in understanding critical distance and what dB(A) or dB(C) etc actually means.

Sound engineers get a lot of value out of the DFA1 and DFA2 channels (you work it out But it is true that complainants will often go away happy if one or both are adjusted in response to their complaint.

Absolutely priceless and very true.

I fondly remember Ben Lyons, the BBC radio producer who got me my first job. He was a great guy, although very particular about sound balance and control because he was a former audio engineer. When he was producing programmes he would often complain about the sound and ask the engineer to tweak it.
One came up with the answer, a fader at the far end of the panel where the producer sat. When Ben criticised, the engineer would point at the fader and tell him he could carefully use it to make a fine adjustment himself. Ben was happy.
This fader became known as the "Ben pot". It was connected to, er, nothing.

I remember a band I was in once booked a rehearsal while the drummer was on holiday. Well the room was paid for so we wemt ahead and I brought my drum machine. I had beforehand programmed it with all the songs we were to be doing complete with tempos, but the singer queried every one; he said they were all too fast. Absolute rubbish as I had checked them all against the original records (and live is usually faster!).

Eventually I despaired and said, "All right, I'll slow it down for you then," and did so. "Is it right now?" He said that it was. I'd slowed it by ONE beat per minute.

(Don't get me started on singers.)

A lot of perceived volume is psychological. I've had this conversation more than once: Let's assume a guitarist called Adam.

Adam: The lead guitar is not loud enough in my monitor, I can't hear it.
Me: Ok, I've turned it up a bit, try that.
Adam: It's too loud now, perhaps a bit less.

No prizes for guessing that I haven't changed anything.

Bob.

Admin wrote: - - - - Sound engineers get a lot of value out of the DFA1 and DFA2 channels (you work it out But it is true that complainants will often go away happy if one or both are adjusted in response to their complaint.

Thank you so much for showing me this technique. It improves recordings no end.
I have spent 2 days(part time) mixing a vocal (not me singing) recording to a BT of mine. FInished it, mastered it and sent it over.
"No like", back came the reply, with a wordy crit about my balance of voice over instruments.
I had another listen both on speakers and on headphones - it still sounded pretty good to me and I couldnt hear what she was complaining about.
Anyway. after Admins advice I ran the Mix through a new VSTi called DFA - FInal Master Balance. I resent it and tonight I got a reply that it is "so much better and thank you for taking the time to rework it."
You can guess what I did - -
Ian

Admin wrote:A lot of perceived volume is psychological.
Bob.

Yes, the psychology also extends to song material. Many people think a band's sound is great if they're familiar with the song and their brains fill in the lyric gaps for them. But if a band using exactly the same equipment and settings sing originals, often they may say they can't hear the singer etc.

You get a similar problem with perception when watching programmes like "The Voice". The live editions in particular are full of hype and the sound in the venue is very loud. The singers sound fine in situ but heard on TV at sitting room volume they can appear subjectively quiet.

I think playing 'loud' is a psychological thing with musicians in that they are so often up their own backsides they want to make sure everyone can hear them... Loudness is obviously a subjective thing- if there's a number you really like, you love it to be played loud and vice versa. Most 'rock' bands see it as a virtue of being excruciatingly loud aka the desire for more and more volume back in the very early days of the Marshall amps. I don't like over loud music at a venue and it very often happens- its as if loudness is a necessary virtue or quality. Im referring to volume to the point where you cannot hear the music- what's the point. I remember going to see a Queen tribute band and they were so loud you literally could not actually hear what they were playing. I mentioned it to the sound guy on my early exit and as you might suspect, his answer was 'oh, they usually play louder than that...'
I think there is a general accepted level of volume for what I'd call 'civilised' events where the band is loud but not so loud that you cannot hear the subtle nuances of what is being played. I don't remember going to many concerts both in arenas and theatres where you couldn't hear the performance because of the awful amount of volume, even a led Zeppelin gig at Earls Court many years ago. At dinners where you have a band or a disco I'm often frustrated to the point of having to stuff bits of napkin into my ears or having to leave the room. My view is that its a sign of musical immaturity turning the volume up to the point that members of the audience are forced to leave.