'THAT SOUND' is driving me mad

[Ryan]

Hi All,
When i first learned to play 'Apache' (with no effects, just through a clean amp) and could play along to the backing track, i thought i was Hank Marvin himself! Then i got a different amp with reverb on it, sounded better. Was not satisfied with this, was not quite right! I got a delay foot pedal, sounded a bit better, but not quite right! Numerous effects pedals later, 10 years on, completely going around the bend with all the different choices of foot pedals, delays, patches etc etc.
I know you've all got your own favourite sounds and equipment, (some of you have given me advice on this subject, which i am very grateful for) i wonder if chasing that 'Sound' has taken away some of the enjoyment of playing these tunes. I've got a little Roland Cube amp and find, when i put the reverb up full, although not spot on, it kind of works and i have more enjoyment just playing along to the backing tracks, sort of works for all of the UB Hank backing tracks. If i try to emulate that specific sound, and can't get it, i find i'm fiddling around with buttons more than actually playing my guitar. I'm not talking about professional playing, obviously that is different, i'm talking about personal enjoyment of playing my instrument and my favourite songs/tunes. Sometimes think that recreating that specific sound is as elusive as UFO's or the Yeti, but i'm sure i'll be persuaded to buy another piece of kit to drive me more around the bend .
I'm only 36, I know some of you guys are older than me, so god knows how long you've been driving yourselves mad. Do we ever accept what we hear, or will we always be chasing 'THAT SOUND'?
Ryan

[Tigerdaisy]

If it's any consolation the Shadows themselves lost 'that sound' pretty quickly after they had recorded their first few hits and started to use different bits of equipment and generally got a bit too respectful and 'Sunday School' for my personal liking. The Roland cube is a good general amp for home and practice, but a good budget versatile fx unit with amp simulations is the Zoom G3-(nicer sounding than Boss effects) doesn't have variable repeat delays that are accurate (as far as Shadows numbers go) but generally the delays and reverb are very good, plus you get chorus, vibrato and a host of other fairly editable effects, plus a useful drum machine for practice purposes.

[Iain Purdon]

Flingel Bunt is hardly Sunday School but a mile away from the early sound.

In my view, you don't have to be spot on, because you never will be, but it's nice to get into the zone.

[stephen]

Ryan, I think that you should go with what gives you the most enjoyment and forget about THAT SOUND......with all its permutations and avid protagonists of the many (and often expensive!) ways of achieving it...........and just when you think you've got there, yet another piece of echo kit or pickups arrive and these are then pronounced as the HOLY GRAIL of THAT SOUND! In point of fact, there is actually a new unit lurking on the horizon that purports to actually be the purveyor of that 'magic' combination of echoes........when it eventually appears. So where do you stop?
I think the answer to that is twofold. If the set up/settings you currently use sound good to your ears and lets you get on with just playing & enjoying your music, you're there already. Secondly, if you can afford & like continually swapping/buying new gear, there's no harm in going that route. You've only got to look at the Marketplace section of this site to see that quite a few members seem to go down this route and as one new echo unit/amp/guitar is vaunted, yesterday's 'miracle box' appears up for sale!
It's only about 4 years ago that I 'got into' Shadows music, virtually by default. A guitar-playing (but none computer using) neighbour of mine, asked me if I could find him the tab for Apache on the internet. I did this, played it through to check it sounded like it should as I remembered it and then I got a little bit hooked on the music. To be quite frank, as a very average home/hobby player I found Shadows stuff a lot easier to play (and most importantly, sound RIGHT) than the Hendrix/Clapton music that I'd hitherto struggled with, so that was a big boost to my playing confidence on its own!
At that early stage I found that I could set up a very passable (to my ears at least!) Shadows patch on my blue-front Valvetronix amp and used that one patch unaltered for ALL the tunes. It's still on the amp now and when I can't be bothered to pull out an FX unit, it's still usable & ear-friendly. I set up a similar sound for that neighbour on his Roland Cube, so I know that you should also be able to obtain a decent sound.
Of course, to my shame, I'm also a bit of a gear-head and subsequently have a ZOOM G7 and G2 with EFTP patches and they are obviously more 'authentic' than my one-size-fits-all patch on the Valvetronix, but if I had never heard them my ignorance would nevertheless have still been blissful!
You also have to factor in your 'audience' if in fact you play to one. It stands to reason that getting up at a Shadows club event and using a generic sound for every song, is probably not going to win you 'Hank's Sound Of The Night ' award, but just being in that Shadows echo sound ballpark will do it & impress the average non-guitar playing/non-Shadows afficionado. Its worked for me and I'm no great shakes as a player or alchemist of the dark art of echoes!
Just enjoy your playing, Ryan!
Stephen.

[dave robinson]

Five words. It's down to the player.

[dave robinson]

Just so you don't read what I said and start thinking you'll never do it - you will.
It just takes a bit a of patience and a lot of practice, plus your guitar needs to be set up correctly to respond to your touch, as well as careful settings on the amp and not too much echo.
I can guarantee success with minimal outlay, I know because I've done it and can prove it.
A basic Etap2hw echo, a Vox AC-4 and any Strat. I demoed it to my mate here today with a guitar I built from a Chinese made neck & body off Ebay, with Wilkinson gold bridge and trem, budget gold tuners and a set of Seymour Duncan Alnico Pro ll pickups, though a set of Ironstone Vintage @ £26 or a set of Toneriders would be as good.
I used my Vox AC-4 with the Etap and then the Catalinbread. The tone was there in spades in an instant, no fancy compressors, tone shapers or anything like that, just the Vox.
I have ordered a Zoom G3X to use live in my solo show and will be programming the echoes myself, only because it's small, light and compact, but I guarantee I'll make it sound almost the same as my massive and heavy Vox Tonelab SE.
The problem most people have is that they do not understand how to get the best out of their gear.
You have to put some hours into working with the kit, it's what Hank did back then and it payed off.
You should never expect to be able to plug in and achieve perfection, be prepared to put some time and effort into finding the subtleties of the tones you are seeking.
I'll post some demoes soon of my latest findings and I'll help anybody who is prepared to help themselves.

[ecca]

Come to the Hankies on Tuesdays at the Saddlers Arms.
You'll get all the advice you want and hands on with loads of Shads type pedals.


............and a bit of pork pie.

[dave robinson]

Come to the Hankies on Tuesdays at the Saddlers Arms.
You'll get all the advice you want and hands on with loads of Shads type pedals.


............and a bit of pork pie.

If I can get down I'll bring the little Vox and the other kit to show you.

[Ryan]

Hi All,
just to say thanks to everyone who replied to my comment. I have a 'DigiTech RP50' fx pedal, brought in 2006, so it's getting on a bit, I have spent lots of hours, over the years, adjusting the settings, but never fully understood what i was doing. The paragraph about the delay in the manual says, "it has 3 different delay types, MONO (d), ANALOG (A), and PING PONG (P), each with 2 seconds of delay time available. There are two different parameters used to program the delay, Delay Variation and Time. The first parameter of the delay effect is Delay Type/Variation, which selects the delay type to be used and varies the amount of feedback (number of repeats) and level. The second delay parameter is Delay Time. This is indicated by a value 1-99 (10ms-99ms), 1.0 and 2.0 (1 and 2 seconds respectively) in the display when the Delay LED is lit. Delay settings are as follows:"

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d,A,P1=5% fback, level 15 d,A,P4=5% fback, level 30 d,A,P7=5% fback, level 50
d,A,P2=25% fback, level 15 d,A,P5=25% fback, level 30 d,A,P8=25% fback, level 50
d,A,P3=50% fback, level 15 d,A,P6=50% fback, level 30 d,A,P9=50% fback, level 50

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I have never fully understood which delay type ie, Mono(d), Analog(A), Ping Pong(P), i should start with, does anyone have any ideas? The feedback and level bit, which is written between the 2 lines i made, i do not understand at all, i am assuming that it is something to do with the speed of the repeats. Could anyone explain it to me?
I have been asking questions about different sound effects pedals, which a lot of you have responded to, with advice given on pedals like the zoom g2's etc. This pedal i'm using is an older type with a relatively simple layout, i'm concerned that these newer fx pedals would be even more confusing, so am a bit reluctant to part with my money and be confused by all the jargon and disappointed when i can't understand it. I'm also not very good on the computer programming side of these things, so i'd like to understand this 1 before i start looking into more complex pedals. Any help, as always, gratefully received
Cheers
Ryan
PS does anyone know if Hank used Mono, Analog or Ping Pong as his delay types, as this would at least give me a starting point, thanks again

[dave robinson]

Ryan, non of those are what we use to achieve the Shadows echoes. You need a machine that offers MULTI TAP.
It is possible to get an echo sound that would be acceptable to the average punter out of what you have, I used to used something along those lines years ago before I understood how it all works, but when you hear the real thing you will immediately recognise it as part of the sound and if you're like most of us you'll want it.
If you can get to the Hankies it could be made clear to you, I may get there this coming Tuesday myself and I'll happily bring the stuff and show you how easy it is.