soundfiles using original shadows backings

[phil kelly]

Probably going to make myself unpopular with a few here but i raise the question can not the main echo unit contenders for replicating Hanks meazzi echo units please post some soundfiles without using the original shadows tracks, to give the listener a better less coloured view of each units capabilities.
i feel people would want to hear these units straight out of the box and not enhanced by original shadows tracks, i dont buy the " there is none of Hanks guitar present here " because for the most of it it is, furthermore the gigging player or bedroom one for that probably does not have access or time on a gig to mess around with all the added studio type eq/ compression on the records etc, seemingly which up to now appears to be the only way to get these units close to the sound.
As a gigging muso i want something i can plug my guitar into and go straight to the amp live on a gig and get a creditable approximation of the meazzi, i am certainly not wanting to appear to knock any of these machines but lets hear them as they are, maybe just play along with an acoustic even, for me to consider a purchase of something like these echo units they have to stand up on their own and produce a sound at least equal to an original tape meazzi unit, something i am not sure if they do, prove me wrong, lose the tracks and lets hear them warts and all, again no disrespect to all concerned.
Phil.

[Iain Purdon]

I think that's a very good point, Phil. There's nothing like the original Shadows rhythm section, minus Hank (or most of him), to make your performance sound pretty authentic! Gigging musos need plug-and-play equipment that achieves what they want without constant fiddling. Ultimately the authenticity lies in the fingers anyway!

We've been lucky at the Warwick Shadows Club to hear many of the current units being used. At our meeting on 7th June, Charlie Hall is coming along to demonstrate his new unit and I look forward to hearing it in action.

[Bob Withrington]

Hi Iain,

Sounds like an extremely good reason to get along to the Warwick Shadows Club on the 7th June.

We hope to make it.

Bob

[Gary Allen]

This should be interesting !

[fenderplucker]

Hi Phil and others,

I guess it depends what we are trying to demonstrate.

One the one hand there is the desire to show that an echo unit can reproduce accurately the sound of the original Meazzis (as well as other echo units) across a wide variety of material. This is what most regard as the "Holy Grail" of echos. Unfortunately most of us are not as fortunate as yourself in having access to one of them, and so the only point of reference is the original recordings. It also of course brings under examination a whole raft of other factors such as guitar, guitar setup, strings, pickups, amplifier, speakers, picks, playing style, the whole recording chain, and any post recording processing, all of which must be optimized in order to reproduce the original sound. Furthermore, by embedding the same lead into a Shadows backing and then something like UBHank, we have also shown that the perception of the lead tone is markedly influenced by the backing and so a direct comparison with the original (to test the merits of the echo) has to be done using a Shadows minus Hank backing. Now, we also know that any traces of Hank (including associated reverb) can also strongly influence the perceived tone, and that is why we go to great pains to get such residuals down to a level where they have no impact on the overall sound. In most cases this is done in a multi-stage process using a number of different software programs, typically something like Audition or Riffstation to do an initial removal, followed by something like Sony Spectralayers Pro to go through the backing note by note to remove what may remain of the lead and any associated reverb. This involves removal of the fundamental note plus all harmonics in a spectral display and, as you might imagine, takes quite a lot of time to get right. In many cases this whole process results in removal of some wanted components in the backing (strings, drums, bass etc) and so we have to overdub replacements as closely as possible to the original. In the particular case of FBI the notes of the lead in the low register sections overlaps completely with Bruce's rhythm and removing Hank in those sections butchered the rhythm too much, and so we simply accepted that as a limitation and fessed up to it. I would also point out that in the videos we did we gave both the unadulterated sound straight from microphone and then showed what final adjustments we made to get it closer to the original, so there was no smoke or mirrors. I think these demos also show that it is very possible to get quite close to the original sound without all the subsequent studio "messing around", in contradiction to your statement to the contrary. We would love to be able to do a direct side-by-side comparison with your drum Meazzi using any backing (or even none), but at the moment that is not possible. Also, I have suggested in the past that if you could send us just some notes and damped notes played through your drum Meazzi (how much simpler and unadulterated can that get!), hopefully with the wow and flutter under a bit better control than in your Spring is nearly here demo, we would happily try to match that with the TVS3. We have done that with the Meazzi and ESE tape units and Vox Long Tom and fared very well with none being able to consistently identify the source. So all this is for those who want to see if an echo unit can accurately reproduce the sound of the original Meazzis, and many people with such an interest play along with Shadows minus Hank backings. If an echo unit can't deliver in this regard in direct comparison with the original recordings, then any "Holy Grail" claims need to be regarded with some reservation.

On the other hand, as you say some are more interested in how an echo unit sounds in some arbitrary environment, and for them a demo using a non-Shadows backing and even non-Shadows tunes might be more relevant. As far as the TVS3 is concerned, there is a wealth of demos (some live and some studio), available on the TVS jukebox and on the web (including this chat site) from people such as ourselves, Robby Januarsa, Gert at the Music Warehouse, Rolf Tjernell and many others doing just that. As far as I am aware the same applies to most other echo units, both from the past and currently available.

So I am at a bit of a loss to understand the nature of the request. It seems to me that the most desirable situation is to have all kind of demos available and as far as I can see this is the current situation.

Regards,

Paul.

[Gary Allen]

Some Shads backings have no Hank when theyre panned but I wonder if someone could make a soundfile where it sounds like an alt version or outtake of an old Shads hit ? It would of course have to sound exactly like Hank 100% and nothing less,bearing in mind that some sounds are easier to achieve than others, regards gary

[KurtFroberg]

As a gigging muso i want something i can plug my guitar into and go straight to the amp live on a gig and get a creditable approximation of the meazzi, i am certainly not wanting to appear to knock any of these machines but lets hear them as they are, maybe just play along with an acoustic even, for me to consider a purchase of something like these echo units they have to stand up on their own and produce a sound at least equal to an original tape meazzi unit, something i am not sure if they do, prove me wrong, lose the tracks and lets hear them warts and all, again no disrespect to all concerned.
Phil.

Hi Phil,
One week ago I posted some demos with my new H&C echo using UB Hank backing. Guitar into the echo and straight into the Vox. Camcorder in front of amp. No other processing of the sound to get an honest example of how the new echo can perform.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12604

Kurt

[dave robinson]

I can see Phil's point and have recorded several tracks initially with UB Hank & Casting A Shadow BTs, but they colour the sound because of the lack of attention to detail,which is why you get a more realistic likeness using 'minus Hank' tracks. I have gone out of my way to show the unit as a 'plug and play' with my recordings.
I'm delighted with my Hall & Collins and have little time for any of the other stuff now. At last I can just get on with playing my guitar because for the very first time I'm content with the sound - it's all there, any anomalies are my doing.

[roger bayliss]

Sounds like Phil is looking for more of an echo comparison as in side by side without any other factors influencing the sound. I would think a solo guitar part is played by the same player using several echo units and no backing would be the obvious way to do that.

The backings do influence the overall impact as does the mix and other factors. I cannot see a UBHank backing giving the right balance to the originals either. It is possible to reverse the process and just have Hank with no backing (acapello) and then play your own version and compare it to the original.

I am with Paul on this about lots of variables including setup of guitar, recording setup, strings and so on affecting end results.

As far as I know some people with Meazzi's have made direct comparisons to the H&C unit and stated it was very close. I suspect the TVS and eTap2HW also would compare well. All different costings too.

I do have several original recordings of the Shadows with Hank completely taken out and therefore the sound should in theory slot in well without influence. Some with lots of reverb like FBI, Dance On etc are usually left with a reverb sound of Hank that influences the sound.

Maybe a go at recording two backings, one original, the other a regular commercial backing in the comparison tests would help ?

[Gary Allen]

The Savage----Almost Acapello--http://www.4shared.com/mp3/91Jkmfvo/Savagehank-shads.html maybe someone can stick this on a home made/Non Shads BT ? Also on Soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/gary-allen-54/savage-hank-less-shads