Beatles question

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Re: Beatles question

Postby GoldenStreet » 29 May 2015, 15:36

Looking at some Billy J. Kramer covers reveals an inconsistency with the composer credit order, which could possibly relate in part to the copyright detail of specific compositions at the time of initial publication, although I have no evidence to back up the theory.

Example courtesy of the 45cat site...

45Cat.JPG
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Re: Beatles question

Postby JimN » 29 May 2015, 16:10

Well, I'd say that Bad To Me and I Call Your Name definitely sound like John Lennon songs, whereas Do You Want To Know A Secret could be either John or Paul and I'll be On My Way is a sure Paul song.
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Re: Beatles question

Postby GoldenStreet » 29 May 2015, 16:47

JimN wrote:Well, I'd say that Bad To Me and I Call Your Name definitely sound like John Lennon songs, whereas Do You Want To Know A Secret could be either John or Paul and I'll be On My Way is a sure Paul song.


... and George singing lead on their own rendition of "Do You Want To Know A Secret" merely increases the doubt!

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Re: Beatles question

Postby Monty » 29 May 2015, 20:27

I have read that early on John & Paul had NO preference re 'whose name came first' - and they were happy to put it either way, with a view to continually changing the order hence the first single 'Lennon-McCartney' and the second 'McCartney-Lennon'

The 'Please Please Me' LP actually lists all their songs as 'McCartney-Lennon' too ...but from then on 'Lennon & McCartney' stuck (it seems to 'flow better' like say 'Laurel & Hardy' or 'Abbott & Costello - no disrespect to John & Paul ! - while often the longer name looks better placed as second like say 'Gilbert & Sullivan' etc)

Hank & Bruce also alternated 'Marvin-Welch' and 'Welch-Marvin' too

years later when Paul reversed the credits on a Live Wings album to 'McCartney-Lennon' (for HIS penned Beatles songs like 'Yesterday' etc) MUCH was made of this by the press :roll: :roll: - but it's something that certainly never bothered either John or Paul originally back in the early sixties

I think 'Lennon and McCartney' does sound better than the other way around (probably why they decided to stick with it) & of course they stuck it on each others individual songs besides the joint efforts

re RED Parlophone - some Irish pressings of 'From Me To You' in 1963 also carried the red label, I have a red 'Love Me Do' (the 'Ringo' drummed version) - there's a black Parlophone version of that too - but it's the red 'Please Please Me' that is worth more as EMI went over to the more common black label Parlophone pressings not long after it came out in 1962
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Re: Beatles question

Postby Monty » 29 May 2015, 20:32

Actually JOHN wrote 'I'll Be On My Way' not Paul...!

they gave it to Billy J.Kramer and The Dakotas (who used it as a 'B' side)
- The Beatles only ever sang it at the BBC and it's on that 'At The BBC' album

also John's ' I Call Your Name' was given to Billy J.Kramer too - it's a 'B' side (to John's 'Bad To Me') and on Billy's 'Listen...' LP (closing track) while The Beatles version is on 'Long Tall Sally' EP & later compilations

John wrote 'Do You Wanna Know A Secret' too (while he was sat on the loo he later said ! :lol: ) - also handed to Billy J.Kramer...and of course sung by George for Themselves...

Paul gave his song; 'From A Window' to Billy J.Kramer (not recorded by The Beatles)
and his; 'Like Dreamers Do' to The Applejacks

John gave The Fourmost his; 'Hello Little Girl' & 'I'm In Love' as their first two hit singles

later they cut Paul's 'Here There and Everywhere' (1966) as their first single after losing guitarist/vocalist Mike Millward to Leukaemia early in 1966 (George Peckham took over) & later as 'Format' they covered Paul's 'Maxwell's Silver Hammer' (with Paul on piano and producing)

the 'Lennon-McCartney' songs covered by Cilla Black as her singles - 'Love of The Loved', 'It's For You', and 'Step Inside Love' were all written by Paul

as were those covered by Peter and Gordon - 'Nobody I Know', 'A World Without Love', 'I Don't Want To See You Again'...and 'Woman' (credited to 'Bernard Webb' !)




the BIGGEST irony is to be found on the 'White Album' where the jagged raw gutsy guitar led rocker 'Helter Skelter'....is written by Paul McCartney

- while the ultra syrupy delicately melodic 'Good Night' featuring Ringo singing with The Mike Sammes Singers backing and romantic orchestral strings sounding like Victor Silvester & his Orchestra...was written by one John Winston Lennon ! ;)
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Re: Beatles question

Postby JimN » 29 May 2015, 22:57

Brilliant post, Monty!
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Re: Beatles question

Postby Steve Parish » 29 May 2015, 23:33

Well said Monty!
It provides an interesting slant and contrast to the view that McCartney went for the more melodic side, and Lennon went for the gutsier, edgier stuff.
While they were busy, possibly competing and trying to out-do the other... suddenly George came along with Something, While My Guitar Gently Weeps, Taxman, I Want To Tell You, If I Needed Someone, Old Brown Shoe amongst others!
Out of all the Beatles, don't forget that George got the first solo number one be that single (My Sweet Lord) and album (All Things Must Pass).
I think that's right?
Jim?!
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Re: Beatles question

Postby Monty » 30 May 2015, 11:13

it's true - tho' George later got 'done' for borrowing the melody of 'My Sweet Lord' from The Chiffons old hit 'He's So Fine'
(tho' surely Phil Spector should have spotted that ? - he produced both !)

A loose guide to re 'who wrote what' of the 'Lennon & McCartney' credited songs:

not always the case but quite often you find:

John - wrote 'from the (openly bleeding) heart' - often re his OWN Love wrenching or bitter experiences sung in the 'first person' - hence; 'Do You Want To Know A Secret' (no. 1 for Billy J. Kramer) , 'I'll Be Back', 'I'm A Loser', 'I Don't Want To Spoil The Party', 'It's Only Love', 'I Feel Fine', 'Help !', 'You've Got To Hide Your Love Away' (written re the step-sister he knew he had but sadly never met), 'Girl', 'Norwegian Wood', 'In My Life', 'Run For Your Life', 'And Your Bird Can Sing', 'Don't Let Me Down',etc
- hence 'I'll Be On MY Way' (with it's line...."they were right I was wrong, true love didn't last long, as the June light turns to moonlight I'll be on my way...")

Paul from 1964 onwards tended to write more in the observational 'third person' often painting pictures of other people; 'She's A Woman', 'Michelle' (no.1 for the Overlanders) , 'Eleanor Rigby', 'For No One', 'Paperback Writer', 'She's Leaving Home', 'Lovely Rita (Meter Maid)', 'Your Mother Should know', 'The Fool on the Hill', 'Martha My Dear', 'Rocky Racoon', 'Lady Madonna', 'Hey Jude', 'Ob-La-Di Ob-La-Da' (no.1 for Marmalade), 'Maxwell's Silver Hammer', 'Carry That Weight', etc

it's not a 100% rule tho'
- Paul could write in the 'first person' - 'Yesterday', 'I've Just Seen A Face', 'Good Day Sunshine', 'Here There and Everywhere', 'When I'm Sixty Four', 'Let it Be', 'The Long and Winding Road' 'etc

John could observe others in the 'third person' - 'Nowhere Man', 'Mr. Kite', 'Lucy in The Sky', 'Dear Prudence', 'Bungelow Bill', 'Sexy Sadie', 'Polythene Pam' etc

Paul could 'Rock' - 'I Saw Her Standing There', 'I'm Down', 'Helter Skelter', 'Birthday', 'Back in The USSR', etc

John could be gently melodic / romantic - 'This Boy', 'Yes it is', 'Julia', 'Because', 'Across The Universe' etc

they wrote a fair number of early songs as a team, and slipped bits into each other's songs - John put in the line; 'I used to be cruel to my woman I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved...' into Paul's song 'Getting Better'

John put the 'bridge' ('Life is very short...') into Paul's 'We Can Work it Out' - the lines Lennon co-sings

Paul put the centre section ('woke up, fell out of bed...') into John's unfinished 'A Day in The Life'

Paul re-wrote the lyrics to John's Enoch Powell inspired racist blast (orignially titled; 'No Parkistanis' !) keeping just the one Lennon line...'Get Back to where you once belong' - the only lines Lennon co-sings (and Paul got them a no.1 hit out of John's tune !) - hence instead we got Paul's revised lyrics; 'Jo Jo was a man who thought he was a loner...' & 'sweet Loretta Martin thought she was a woman, but she was another man...' (!) in a rare latter 'Lennon-McCartney' joint song...

Despite their rivalry (inspiring each other) John and Paul still wrote some songs together as a team - mostly for Ringo - 'I Wanna be Your Man' (a key early hit for The Rolling Stones), 'What Goes On' (written with Ringo), 'Yellow Submarine', 'With A Little Help From My Friends' (no.1 for Joe Cocker)

- while a few rare true 'Lennon & McCartney' songs included; 'Tell Me What You See' & 'Wait'

while George then added a third more offbeat songwriting style - with unusual angles on relationships in songs like: 'Don't Bother Me', 'You Like Me Too Much', 'If I Needed Someone' (a top twenty hit for The Hollies in 1965 ), 'Think For Yourself',
'I Want To Tell You' etc

plus other types of songs such as; 'Taxman', 'Blue Jay Way', 'It's All Too Much', 'Only A Northern Song', 'Piggies', 'Savoy Truffle', 'Long Long Long', 'Old Brown Shoe', 'While My Guitar Gently Weeps', 'I Me Mine', 'Here Comes The Sun' etc

also George had his 'Eastern' style numbers; 'Love You Too', 'Within You Without You' & 'The Inner Light'...and his romantic side; 'I Need You', 'Something'

George was influenced by John & Paul but added a third distinctive 'voice' and a third songwriting approach to their work
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Re: Beatles question

Postby Pinner Fan » 30 May 2015, 16:54

Let's not forget that they did actually write many songs TOGETHER, especially in the early days ..........
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Re: Beatles question

Postby Monty » 30 May 2015, 21:42

George Harrison and John Lennon wrote the early guitar instrumental 'Cry For A Shadow' (a nod to The Shadows ?)

Most of the original songs on the first two albums were joint 'Lennon & McCartney' efforts tho' some were one of the pairs basic idea with input from the other - i.e John's 'Please Please Me' & Paul's 'I Saw Her Standing There' (aka 'Seventeen' per the Cavern rehearsal tape, where Lennon typically added one more suggestive line; '...you know what I mean...' in place of Paul's original rather lame lyric about her; ...'never been a beauty queen')

Paul alone wrote the instrumental 'Catswalk'

they were a proper songwriting team for songs on the early singles like; 'From Me To You', 'She Loves You', 'I'll Get You', 'Thank You Girl', 'I Want To Hold Your Hand' etc....

John wrote songs like; 'I'm In Love'' & 'It Won't Be Long' - offering a choice of them to The Fourmost who chose the first song as their second single.

Paul wrote 'All My Loving', 'And I Love Her', while John wrote 'I Should Have Known Better' (the 1964 'A Hard Days Night' LP sleeve notes by Tony Barrow even mentions that) while John and Paul teamed up for most of the other songs on the 'A Hard Days Night' album (such as 'Tell Me Why' & 'I'm Happy Just To Dance With You' for George to sing etc) as they were 'writing to order' for the film's production deadline

John wrote 'I Feel Fine' (as the 'Beatles For Sale' 1964 LP sleeve note by Tony Barrow also advises)

'Can't Buy Me Love' and 'Things We Said Today' was mostly Paul, and 'I'll Be Back' & 'You Can't Do That' mostly John, (John played lead guitar on the latter song).

I think it's from 'Help !' album in 1965 onwards that they really began to write more songs independently of each other tho' still putting them under the team banner...
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